The Wonderful Dispensation of Grace
- Thread starter Bob Hill
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patman
Active member
Question for Bob
Question for Bob
Bob,
In considering the various reasons thelaqachisnext should stop using Enoch as scripture, I thought of something that might be a big help for her to see how it actually contradicts scripture.. something really simple.
Enoch calls the Giants Evil because they were breed of angel and flesh. I tend to think God doesn't punish the child for the sin of the father, so these Giants did not necessarily HAVE to be evil. They would have freewill too.
Genius 6:4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
If the book of Enoch calls these men evil, and the Bible says they are men of renown, we have a CLEAR contradiction. It is huge because so much of Enoch talks and talks about how evil these Giants were.
So the only thing that would defeat this point is if the meaning of thew word renown was altered by the translation. I do not know the language. Could you check into this?
Am I right with this point?
Thanks Bob.
Question for Bob
Bob,
In considering the various reasons thelaqachisnext should stop using Enoch as scripture, I thought of something that might be a big help for her to see how it actually contradicts scripture.. something really simple.
Enoch calls the Giants Evil because they were breed of angel and flesh. I tend to think God doesn't punish the child for the sin of the father, so these Giants did not necessarily HAVE to be evil. They would have freewill too.
Genius 6:4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
If the book of Enoch calls these men evil, and the Bible says they are men of renown, we have a CLEAR contradiction. It is huge because so much of Enoch talks and talks about how evil these Giants were.
So the only thing that would defeat this point is if the meaning of thew word renown was altered by the translation. I do not know the language. Could you check into this?
Am I right with this point?
Thanks Bob.
patman said:
Enoch is wrong on this interpretation. Angels do not procreate according to Jesus. A contextual interpretation of this passage is relating to the sin of intermarriage between the godly Seth line and the ungodly Cain line. It is not about demons and men breeding.
I would like for you to establish this. I don't care anything at all about the book of Enoch but it seems pretty obvious that the Bible talks about human women bearing the children of angels.godrulz said:
Such children would go a long way toward explaining how basically the entire world could come to believe in what became the Greek gods.
Resting in Him,
Clete
patman said:
Mt. 22:30 At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.
Marriage and procreation are biblically assumed. By way of principle and inference, there is no evidence that angels procreate since they are spirit creatures that do not multiply. Man and animals have the physical ability to reproduce their own kind. Appearances of angels as 'men' do not have to be understand as having genitals, needing to eat and blow their 'noses', needing the bathroom, etc. They take on a form as messengers of God without becoming actual men.
Clete said:
Are you basing this on Genesis 6 alone? The broader context is consistent with the proposed understanding that it is the human godly line of Sethites wrongly intermarrying with the ungodly line of Cainites, leading to genetic mutation perhaps and judgment from God (seen today with inbreeding/incest). This is more plausible than a fanciful, speculative assumption that angels can incarnate and become sexually active with an ability to procreate seen no where else in the Bible.
You are in error, and if you'd go read the Scripture instead of reading men who disclaim the Scripture you would see you are flat out wrong -or maybe you are just pretending you know better than the LORD what went on.godrulz said:
Demons do not breed. Demons are the disembodied spirits of the nephillim.
The sons of God laqach daughters born in Adam -not in Seth.
Seth is not a son of God. No human being was a son of God after the fall of Adam until Jesus Christ came in human flesh of the second and only Living human being Son of God.
Israel is adopted "sons/daughters" by faith, only, by being born in the Name of the New Man, which name is "Israel". Adam is the old man. No old man is a son of God, only a potential son of God by adoption into the New Man.
Seth is a multiplied Adam seed, therefore Seth is in Adam. Seth's sons were born in Adam. Seth was born in Adam's image.
Third: Cain's line did not survive the flood, and therefore, the "also after that" is the time after the flood, that the sons of God "laqach" daughters "in Adam" -just as those chained up ones [who were chained as a warning to other sons of God -angels- to not commit that fornication, which did do before the flood.
Fourth: those angels are chained up in hell as a warning to others not to do that, and there is no chaining in hell of Seth's seed for taking wives of Cain's seed.
Fifth: Enoch did not interpret anything -he wrote the book!
And the fallen angels "cut the roots" of Adam by removing the "Adam" of their wives' eggs and put their own evil spirits in the the eggs, unlawfully and illegally.
They didn't just take over the Adam flesh with their evil spirits, but they also sinned against all the creation, in the sea, on the land, and in the air, and "they did it to provoke YHWH".
Scripture says Genesis 6:1 "Adam began to multiply on face of earth and daughters born "
That the sons of God saw (8799) the daughters of Adam*** that they were fair; and they took (8799) them wives of all which they chose (8804) .
sons of God did not see daughters of Seth.
You have been lazy about doing your own studies, Godrulz, and just take your doctrine as pablum from men's writings.
Do you not read the Scriptures enough to know where to find the words of Jesus!!! or do you not even know how to use a concordance?patman said:
The Sadducees knew not the Scriptures nor the power of God and tried to trick Jesus on whose wife a woman would be in the resurrection who had married seven brothers according to the law of Kinsman; Jesus said that in the regeneration they [we] do not marry nor are they [we] given in marraige, but are as the angels in heaven.
Those angels who "laqach wives of daughters born in Adam" left their first habitation [as Jude also reports, from Enoch] -and Enoch says they could never return to heaven -so they are not there.
Their taking forms of men and marrying daughters born in Adam was fornication -mingling unlawfully their own spirits with daughters born in Adam.
Angels can appear as men [Hebrews 13:2. Genesis 18, 19] and eat earth food [Genesis 18], and men ate angels' food for forty years [a 'threashed grain' cast down from heaven daily] and by "cutting of roots", angels can procreate their own evil spirits; whose seed are those "names" which were never written in the Book of Life from the beginning, and whose flesh will never be resurrected, as they had no legal claim to that flesh, as the LORD says, in Enoch.
Hbr 13:2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares.
The sodomites wanted to rape the angels who ate with Lot and who spent the night with LOT, before the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah.
Jud 1:6 And the angelswhich kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Jud 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
I suppose this is just too much facts of Scripture for you and Godrulz -eh?.
Laq: you cannot string different contexts together to support a preconceived idea (eisegesis vs exegesis). Credible, godly interpreters disagree on some interpretations. Your understanding on this issue is speculative and problematic. Interpret each context/verse on its own merit, not to support your ideas (that are probably not original, but were gleaned from someone else...calling the kettle black).
Deal with the Scriptures, Godrulz -not with your own preconceived ideas gleaned from books written by uninspired men.godrulz said:
Adam multipled on the face of the earth and sons of God took -"laqach" daughters of all whom they chose; before the flood, and after the flood.
Enoch is vindicated by the LORD Jesus Christ and by all the authors of the NT, and Enoch refutes MAD doctrine, and in this instance, Enoch refutes godrulz' doctrine, also.
Jude is "Canon" and Jude says the angels sinned in fornication and were chained in hell as a warning to others not to do that going after 'strange' flesh, just as Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire as a warning to others not to commit that fornication of going after strange flesh
You want men who were rejecting the Scripture of Truth to be your private interpreters of the Word, and you ignore the facts.
You are being stubborn against the Truth of the Word in this.
Jubilees describes the angel's sinning, and Jubilees and Enoch were in the Canon of the Ethiopian Coptic Church for two thousand years. That's fact, and the western Church is greatly in error which has banned the Truth -not knowing the truth themselves.
Godrulz, where is the Scripture of Truth referred to in Danuiel 10:31 to be found, in which all that is in Daniel 11 and 12 were written, which the angel showed Daniel.
WHERE?????
Can you tell???
patman
Active member
thelaqachisnext said:
Why do you patronize me? I knew of the verse GR spoke of. Read it plenty of times, though I do not see where it says they are incapable of fathering children.. So I asked him to see if he refereed to something else after I couldn't find a verse so specific. You going to make this into an issue or can we address something real?
To put it mildly, you're a little 'out there.' You expect everyone to read scripture, but no the Bible, but rather your concoction of ancient books.
It worries me about you, when people start making their own "Bible" and their own religion to suit their own ideas, a healthy structure is lost. Your Bible will never be complete because there will always be some other ancient book that could add to your beliefs at any time, and when will it stop?
You will go off the deep end.
I hope my idea submitted to Bob Hill will produce a clear answer for you... If I am right Enoch's evil angel humans contradict the giants of scripture who were renowned, and not evil at all... A clear contradiction to Gen.. and the Bible by the Book of Enoch. That should show you that entire section, all those sections about the Giants was just made up.
patman said:
You want Mr Hill to show you the meaning and you are going to follow his interpretations rather than let the Word interpret the Word???
That is not the way to find Truth, but opinion -which agreement with your own opinion is all you are trying to get in this quest.
The Word:
Num 13:33
And there we saw [07200] ra'ah
the giants, [05303] n@phiyl
the sons [01121] ben
of Anak, [06061] `Anaq
[which come] of the giants: [05303] n@phiyl
and we were in our own sight [05869] `ayin
as grasshoppers, [02284] chagab
and so we were in their sight. [05869] `ayin
The sons of Anak are of the n@phiyl, and the n@phiyl are the seed of the Watchers and the daughters born in Adam, whom the Watchers "laqach" as wives.
The Word:
Gen 6:4
There were giants [05303] n@phiyl
in the earth [0776] 'erets
in those days; [03117] yowm
and also after [0310] 'achar
that, [03651] ken
when [0834] 'aher
the sons [01121] ben
of God [0430] 'elohiym
came in [0935] bow'
unto the daughters [01323] bath
of men, [0120] 'adam
and they bare [03205] yalad
[children] to them, the same [01992] hem
[became] mighty men [01368] gibbowr
which [were] of old, [05769] `owlam
men [0582] 'enowsh
of renown. [08034] shem
Sons of God and sons of Adam can be "gibbowr"; but sons of the sons of God cannot be "Adam".
Adam and gibbowr can be 'enowsh, but Adam cannot be sons of God since the fall.
Only "Israel", the New Man, is the human being "Son of God"; and all in Adam who are 'enowsh and maybe even gibbowr can be adopted into Israel, the Beloved Living human being Son of God, the only Begotten of the Father [as Adam, the first human son of God is dead in spirit and is not a son of God since the fall].
Sons of the Watchers are called n@phiyl, and no son of Adam is or can be a n@phiyl; n@phiyl disembodied are the demons who torment mankind by YHWH's decree until Messiah sends His angels to gather them together and cast them into the lake of fire -never resurrected in the flesh bodies which their Watcher father's genetically cloned for their evil spirits.
Sons of the n@phiyl [who propagated before their disembodiment] are called various names in Scripture and in different nations.
They are the Titans =giants, of Greece; the Giants of all nations' stories; they are the raksasa of the Ramayana, of the ancient east Indian epics.
In Scripture, the sons of the n@phiyl have many names -Goliath and his brothers were of the Anakim, of Anak, a son of the n@phiyl.
Deu 2:10 The Emims dwelt therein in times past, a people great, and many, and tall, as the Anakims; Deu 2:11 Which also were accounted giants, as the Anakims; but the Moabites call them Emims.
Gen 14:5 And in the fourteenth 06240 0702 year 08141 came 0935 Chedorlaomer 03540, and the kings 04428 that [were] with him, and smote 05221 the Rephaims 07497 in Ashteroth Karnaim 06255, and the Zuzims 02104 in Ham 01990, and the Emims 0368 in Shaveh Kiriathaim 07741,
Gen 15:20 And the Hittites 02850, and the Perizzites 06522, and the Rephaims 07497,
Deu 2:11 Which 01992 also were accounted 02803 giants 07497, as the Anakims 06062; but the Moabites 04125 call 07121 them Emims 0368.
Deu 2:20 (That also was accounted 02803 a land 0776 of giants 07497: giants 07497 dwelt 03427 therein in old time 06440; and the Ammonites 05984 call 07121 them Zamzummims 02157;
Deu 3:11 For only Og 05747 king 04428 of Bashan 01316 remained 07604 of the remnant 03499 of giants 07497; behold, his bedstead 06210 [was] a bedstead 06210 of iron 01270; [is] it not 03808 in Rabbath 07237 of the children 01121 of Ammon 05983? nine 08672 cubits 0520 [was] the length 0753 thereof, and four 0702 cubits 0520 the breadth 07341 of it, after the cubit 0520 of a man 0376.
Deu 3:13 And the rest 03499 of Gilead 01568, and all Bashan 01316, [being] the kingdom 04467 of Og 05747, gave 05414 I unto the half 02677 tribe 07626 of Manasseh 04519; all the region 02256 of Argob 0709, with all Bashan 01316, which 01931 was called 07121 the land 0776 of giants 07497.
Jos 12:4 And the coast 01366 of Og 05747 king 04428 of Bashan 01316, [which was] of the remnant 03499 of the giants 07497, that dwelt 03427 at Ashtaroth 06252 and at Edrei 0154,
Jos 13:12 All the kingdom 04468 of Og 05747 in Bashan 01316, which reigned 04427 in Ashtaroth 06252 and in Edrei 0154, who remained 07604 of the remnant 03499 of the giants 07497: for these did Moses 04872 smite 05221 , and cast them out 03423 .
Jos 15:8 And the border 01366 went up 05927 by the valley 01516 of the son 01121 of Hinnom 02011 unto the south 05045 side 03802 of the Jebusite 02983; the same [is] Jerusalem 03389: and the border 01366 went up 05927 to the top 07218 of the mountain 02022 that [lieth] before 06440 the valley 01516 of Hinnom 02011 westward 03220, which [is] at the end 07097 of the valley 06010 of the giants 07497 northward 06828:
Jos 17:15 And Joshua 03091 answered 0559 them, If thou [be] a great 07227 people 05971, [then] get thee up 05927 to the wood 03293 [country], and cut down 01254 for thyself there in the land 0776 of the Perizzites 06522 and of the giants 07497, if mount 02022 Ephraim 0669 be too narrow 0213 for thee.
Jos 18:16 And the border 01366 came down 03381 to the end 07097 of the mountain 02022 that [lieth] before 06440 the valley 01516 of the son 01121 of Hinnom 02011, [and] which [is] in the valley 06010 of the giants 07497 on the north 06828, and descended 03381 to the valley 01516 of Hinnom 02011, to the side 03802 of Jebusi 02983 on the south 05045, and descended 03381 to Enrogel 05883,
2Sa 5:18 The Philistines 06430 also came 0935 and spread 05203 themselves in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.
2Sa 5:22 And the Philistines 06430 came up 05927 yet again 03254 , and spread 05203 themselves in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.
2Sa 21:16 And Ishbibenob 03430, which [was] of the sons 03211 of the giant 07497, the weight 04948 of whose spear 07013 [weighed] three 07969 hundred 03967 [shekels] of brass 05178 in weight 04948, he being girded 02296 with a new 02319 [sword], thought 0559 to have slain 05221 David 01732.
2Sa 21:18 And it came to pass after this 0310, that there was again a battle 04421 with the Philistines 06430 at Gob 01359: then Sibbechai 05444 the Hushathite 02843 slew 05221 Saph 05593, which [was] of the sons 03211 of the giant 07497.
2Sa 21:20 And there was yet a battle 04421 in Gath 01661, where was a man 0376 of [great] stature 04067 04055, that had on every hand 03027 six 08337 fingers 0676, and on every foot 07272 six 08337 toes 0676, four 0702 and twenty 06242 in number 04557; and he also was born 03205 to the giant 07497.
2Sa 21:22 These four 0702 were born 03205 to the giant 07497 in Gath 01661, and fell 05307 by the hand 03027 of David 01732, and by the hand 03027 of his servants 05650.
2Sa 23:13 And three 07969 07970 of the thirty 07970 chief 07218 went down 03381 , and came 0935 to David 01732 in the harvest time 07105 unto the cave 04631 of Adullam 05725: and the troop 02416 of the Philistines 06430 pitched 02583 in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.
1Ch 11:15 Now three 07969 of the thirty 07970 captains 07218 went down 03381 to the rock 06697 to David 01732, into the cave 04631 of Adullam 05725; and the host 04264 of the Philistines 06430 encamped 02583 in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.
1Ch 14:9 And the Philistines 06430 came 0935 and spread 06584 themselves in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.
1Ch 20:4 And it came to pass after this 0310, that there arose 05975 war 04421 at Gezer 01507 with the Philistines 06430; at which time 0227 Sibbechai 05444 the Hushathite 02843 slew 05221 Sippai 05598, [that was] of the children 03211 of the giant 07497: and they were subdued 03665 .
1Ch 20:6 And yet again there was war 04421 at Gath 01661, where was a man 0376 of [great] stature 04060, whose fingers 0676 and toes 0676 [were] four 0702 and twenty 06242, six 08337 [on each hand], and six 08337 [on each foot]: and he also was the son 03205 of the giant 07497.
1Ch 20:8 These 0411 were born 03205 unto the giant 07497 in Gath 01661; and they fell 05307 by the hand 03027 of David 01732, and by the hand 03027 of his servants 05650.
Isa 17:5 And it shall be as when the harvestman 07105 gathereth 0622 the corn 07054, and reapeth 07114 the ears 07641 with his arm 02220; and it shall be as he that gathereth 03950 ears 07641 in the valley 06010 of Rephaim 07497.
~~~~~~~~~
And you would serve yourself well to look into the facts of where Paul understood the doctrine of the formerly Hidden Son of Man, who was "hidden in God from the beginning" and is now come in flesh of the second human being creation as Kinsman/Redeemer to Adam.
Look godrulz, I just read the Bible and let the chips fall where they may. If Genesis says that angels had sexual relations with human women then why would I not take it just as much at face value as I take any other part of Scripture? It's not like the Bible does just come right out and say that this happened. It's only as plain as the nose on your face.godrulz said:
If you want to suggest that it is talking in some sort of symbolic terms then it is on you to show that. As for me, I have no reason to think that the passages which discuss this stuff mean anything other than what they seem to mean. What reason could there be?
Resting in Him,
Clete
Clete said:
Based on my research, 'sons of God' does not always refer to angels. There is nothing explicit in the passage to make one think they are angels. This is a popular assumption, but not the only possibility. Taking unrelated contexts to make a preconceived point does not always work (e.g. JWs say Jesus is the wisdom of God in the NT...correct...they then read a personification of wisdom in Prov. 8 and think they are identical, reducing Christ to a creature...just because similar phrases are used elsewhere than Gen. 6 does not mean the usage is the same...words can have a variety of meanings, depending on the context, as you know).
Which versions use the words 'demon' or 'angels' in Gen. 6?
Where did you research?godrulz said:
Adam was a son of God at his creation [Luke 3:38; Malachi 3:38]. Since the fall, Adam has been a fallen son of God of the human kind.
Israel is called the "sons and daughters" of YHWH only by adoption: they got the name of Adoption and the promise of the Spirit of Adoption and the promise of the body of Adoption to come; but no human being is called "Son of God" but Jesus Christ, the Beloved Son, whose New Man Name is Israel -Isaiah 49.
Only the Son of Man is the Human Son of God, who was hidden in God from the beginning and is now come in flesh of the second human being creation, and no human being of Adam has the right to be a son of God since our head fell: only by adoption into the New Man's Living Spirit can we be called sons of God.
The Septuagint called the ben Elohim, the Watchers, angels.
Godrulz, Adam could not appear before YHWH in His heavenly temple as a son of God since the fall -that is what the Son of Man has come to redeem us back for, to be a son of God by adoption into His Living Spirit for the Glory of the Father to fill our being.
None of these, below, are human beings, Godrulz.
Just put the Godless perverter of the Gospel on ignore, and it will be much smoother.patman said: