keypurr
Well-known member
It does not say that JESUS made the ages, it say the SON made them. Consider that the Son was not the human Jesus. That son is the express image of the father who is SPIRIT not human.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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It does not say that JESUS made the ages, it say the SON made them. Consider that the Son was not the human Jesus. That son is the express image of the father who is SPIRIT not human.
I don't think your interpretation works because in the context of Hebrews 1, "the son" refers to Jesus "in the last days" (Hebrews 1:2). Thus, both "appointed heir of all things" and "made the ages" should be taken in the same historical context when "the son" was referring to a human being (Jesus).
keypurr
Well-known member
Nope, the son was God's first creation and he was a spirit being. He is the EXPRESS IMAGE of God who is a spirit. Jesus was a man that is the body prepared for the true son. Hebrew 10:5
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keypurr
Well-known member
I said
This might help you understand. The word 'through" means "reason for". God created everything "for" Jesus.
Heb 1:1-2
1 God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets,
2 has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds;
(NKJ)
SimpleMan77
New member
SimpleMan77
New member
[MENTION=16629]patrick jane[/MENTION] any thoughts on why the Father would take full credit for creation?
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SimpleMan77
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The Trinity
There was no "son" before Bethlehem. There was God, and when He spoke there was His word. His word did not have personal qualities until the incarnation.
I agree that God's word, as a means of communicating, was God's first creation. There is no need for "word" if there's no space-time. Word is a means of projecting thought and will across space-time, which itself is a creation of God.
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There was no "son" before Bethlehem. There was God, and when He spoke there was His word. His word did not have personal qualities until the incarnation.
I agree that God's word, as a means of communicating, was God's first creation. There is no need for "word" if there's no space-time. Word is a means of projecting thought and will across space-time, which itself is a creation of God.
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SimpleMan77
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No "son" before the incarnation. One God existed, and when He wanted to reveal His will or some truth about Himself, He spoke.
So there was God and His word, which are a inseparable as me and my word. If God's word is a separate person than my word is a separate person from me.
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SimpleMan77
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Wrong. Number one, the Bible CLEARLY says Jesus is God.
Number 2, say God wanted to become a man. He'd have to "make" the body and the human/divine spirit. The man Christ Jesus was absolutely made by (and inhabited by, thus becoming one with) the eternal, omnipresent God.
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keypurr
Well-known member
I disagree, there was a son before creation of the Universe took place.
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keypurr
Well-known member
KingdomRose
New member
It would be interesting to see what people would say now, after this lengthy discussion. What would the poll show NOW?
SimpleMan77
New member
Revelation 1:8, Jesus said: I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Isaiah 9:6 says the Son's name would be called both the Mighty God and the Everlasting Father.
Jesus accepted worship, which no angel or righteous man ever did or ever will do. Only God, deceived individuals, and demonic powers ever receive worship. I'll let you decide which one describes Him...
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keypurr
Well-known member
Old news
There is just one God, the God that Jesus Christ has.
Did he not say he was going to HIS GOD?
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There is just one God, the God that Jesus Christ has.
Did he not say he was going to HIS GOD?
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keypurr
Well-known member
SimpleMan77
New member
No change.
KingdomRose
New member
I ask you to think about this a bit further. Keypurr is absolutely correct to say that Jesus Christ HAS a God, and that is the Father. The Father is Supreme. (Psalm 83:18, KJV)
Revelation 1:8 refers to the Father, not Jesus. Both Jesus and God (the Father) are being spoken about in chapter one. It is perfectly reasonable to say that verse 8 is about the Father. Indeed, verse 9 refers to Jesus AND God. John said that he was on the island of Patmos because he was "speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus." It is only the Father, God, who is "Almighty."
That leads us into your second reference, at Isaiah 9:6. Most versions of the Bible simply go along with the King James Version there, which is OK, but the Holy Bible from the Aramaic of the Peshitta renders it this way:
"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder: and his name is called 'wonderful counsellor, the mighty one, the everlasting god, the prince of peace.'"
So much for "Everlasting Father." But that can be explained too, if we insist on the KJV. Anyway, we of course know that there are no capital letters in Hebrew/Aramaic, or even in Greek. Jesus is referred to as "god" in perhaps two places in the Bible, but never Almighty God (in upper-case OR lower-case). The "god" that Jesus is is from the Hebrew El Gibbohr, which means "mighty god," NOT Almighty God.
Only Jehovah is referred to as El Shaddai, which is Almighty God.
So the prophecy in Isaiah refers to the Messiah to come, but not Almighty God. He is a "mighty god," meaning that he will be a powerful, important, highly regarded individual. That is what "god" meant to the Jewish audience of Isaiah's day and also in the Apostle John's day. Gods were distinguished from one another by certain titles, such as "El Gibbohr" and "El Shaddai," or, as in John's day, definite articles.
It is interesting that the Jewish Publication Society's Tanakh renders Isaiah 9:6 like this: "He has been named 'the Mighty God is planning grace; the Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler.'" We already know that "Mighty God" just means a powerful person, and only the Father, Jehovah, is Almighty. It could even be referring to Jehovah, as He is called BOTH "mighty" and "almighty." But the Messiah is also called "Eternal Father" here. That must be in the sense that he has given life to someone, as Jesus did when he died for our salvation so that we could live forever. (Even Paul considered himself a spiritual "father" to his believing "children," though he had no fleshly children.)
Jesus never accepted worship as God Almighty. He accepted "worship" in the sense of being respected. Only his Father deserved worship as the Almighty. Jesus always pointed to the Father as the Most High, and his God. (John 17:3; John 20:17)
marhig
Well-known member
Here's the very beginning of revelation
Revelation 1:1
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it*by his angel unto his servant John.
So it says here that God gave revelation to Jesus for Jesus to show to his servants and Jesus signified it to his angel into John
Firstly, Jesus isn't God, because God gave him the revelation. And this is after he's naturally died, if Jesus were God then he would be called God the son by now. And if Jesus was God the son it would read at the beginning of revelation 1 something like this, our God Jesus Christ, who sent revelation by his angel. But it doesn't, it says that Jesus received revelation from God.
Next the angel, this isn't Jesus either, but it sounds like him speaking, because he's saying everything that Jesus is telling him to say, so the angel is delivering a message to John, from Jesus who had revelation from God.
All in heaven are one, one heart, one mind, one voice, and no flesh they are spirit, and all come from one God in varying strengths, they are ministering spirits, and those in heaven are those who when they heard the word of God believed, then through faith they laid down their lives in this world and denied their flesh and didn't live according to their will to do the will of God, following Jesus, and they turned away from the things of this world, those that were last in this world, but they will be first in heaven.
Jesus is the highest of all as he forsook everything for God, he never let Satan in and he never sinned Satan had nothing in him, and God has set him at his right hand. And God is the God and father of all, Jesus included, Jesus who is the Christ the son of the living God. Who has been exalted by God to his right hand and he is over everything now. But God is still his God and father also, just as he is ours. As Jesus said it himself when he said, I go to my father and your father, my God and your God. And Jesus said that his God is the father and he is the only true God.
Also, Jesus is the narrow way, his way is the only way and those who are his sheep hear his voice and follow him. They deny themselves, bare there cross and follow Jesus. These are the true church of Christ who when they hear his voice, follow him and turn from sin and this world and become doers of the word and not hearers only!
Matthew 7
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Jesus Christ is that way, he is the truth and his life is the only life follow!