The Trinity

The Trinity

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marhig

marhig

Well-known member
KingdomRose said:
I ask you to think about this a bit further. Keypurr is absolutely correct to say that Jesus Christ HAS a God, and that is the Father. The Father is Supreme. (Psalm 83:18, KJV)

Revelation 1:8 refers to the Father, not Jesus. Both Jesus and God (the Father) are being spoken about in chapter one. It is perfectly reasonable to say that verse 8 is about the Father. Indeed, verse 9 refers to Jesus AND God. John said that he was on the island of Patmos because he was "speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus." It is only the Father, God, who is "Almighty."

That leads us into your second reference, at Isaiah 9:6. Most versions of the Bible simply go along with the King James Version there, which is OK, but the Holy Bible from the Aramaic of the Peshitta renders it this way:

"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder: and his name is called 'wonderful counsellor, the mighty one, the everlasting god, the prince of peace.'"

So much for "Everlasting Father." But that can be explained too, if we insist on the KJV. Anyway, we of course know that there are no capital letters in Hebrew/Aramaic, or even in Greek. Jesus is referred to as "god" in perhaps two places in the Bible, but never Almighty God (in upper-case OR lower-case). The "god" that Jesus is is from the Hebrew El Gibbohr, which means "mighty god," NOT Almighty God.

Only Jehovah is referred to as El Shaddai, which is Almighty God.

So the prophecy in Isaiah refers to the Messiah to come, but not Almighty God. He is a "mighty god," meaning that he will be a powerful, important, highly regarded individual. That is what "god" meant to the Jewish audience of Isaiah's day and also in the Apostle John's day. Gods were distinguished from one another by certain titles, such as "El Gibbohr" and "El Shaddai," or, as in John's day, definite articles.

It is interesting that the Jewish Publication Society's Tanakh renders Isaiah 9:6 like this: "He has been named 'the Mighty God is planning grace; the Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler.'" We already know that "Mighty God" just means a powerful person, and only the Father, Jehovah, is Almighty. It could even be referring to Jehovah, as He is called BOTH "mighty" and "almighty." But the Messiah is also called "Eternal Father" here. That must be in the sense that he has given life to someone, as Jesus did when he died for our salvation so that we could live forever. (Even Paul considered himself a spiritual "father" to his believing "children," though he had no fleshly children.)

Jesus never accepted worship as God Almighty. He accepted "worship" in the sense of being respected. Only his Father deserved worship as the Almighty. Jesus always pointed to the Father as the Most High, and his God. (John 17:3; John 20:17)
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I agree with most of that, except that Jesus didn't give us life by his death on the cross. He was dead a long time before the cross, he gave his whole life to God and we receive life through him. He gave us life through the spirit, firstly by the word of God through the the gospel of salvation and then by the spirit within once we are born anew of God. And those who believe and have faith are saved from death. And if they endure to the end they have the hope of receiving eternal life.

John 6

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 
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keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
KingdomRose said:
I ask you to think about this a bit further. Keypurr is absolutely correct to say that Jesus Christ HAS a God, and that is the Father. The Father is Supreme. (Psalm 83:18, KJV)

Revelation 1:8 refers to the Father, not Jesus. Both Jesus and God (the Father) are being spoken about in chapter one. It is perfectly reasonable to say that verse 8 is about the Father. Indeed, verse 9 refers to Jesus AND God. John said that he was on the island of Patmos because he was "speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus." It is only the Father, God, who is "Almighty."

That leads us into your second reference, at Isaiah 9:6. Most versions of the Bible simply go along with the King James Version there, which is OK, but the Holy Bible from the Aramaic of the Peshitta renders it this way:

"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder: and his name is called 'wonderful counsellor, the mighty one, the everlasting god, the prince of peace.'"

So much for "Everlasting Father." But that can be explained too, if we insist on the KJV. Anyway, we of course know that there are no capital letters in Hebrew/Aramaic, or even in Greek. Jesus is referred to as "god" in perhaps two places in the Bible, but never Almighty God (in upper-case OR lower-case). The "god" that Jesus is is from the Hebrew El Gibbohr, which means "mighty god," NOT Almighty God.

Only Jehovah is referred to as El Shaddai, which is Almighty God.

So the prophecy in Isaiah refers to the Messiah to come, but not Almighty God. He is a "mighty god," meaning that he will be a powerful, important, highly regarded individual. That is what "god" meant to the Jewish audience of Isaiah's day and also in the Apostle John's day. Gods were distinguished from one another by certain titles, such as "El Gibbohr" and "El Shaddai," or, as in John's day, definite articles.

It is interesting that the Jewish Publication Society's Tanakh renders Isaiah 9:6 like this: "He has been named 'the Mighty God is planning grace; the Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler.'" We already know that "Mighty God" just means a powerful person, and only the Father, Jehovah, is Almighty. It could even be referring to Jehovah, as He is called BOTH "mighty" and "almighty." But the Messiah is also called "Eternal Father" here. That must be in the sense that he has given life to someone, as Jesus did when he died for our salvation so that we could live forever. (Even Paul considered himself a spiritual "father" to his believing "children," though he had no fleshly children.)

Jesus never accepted worship as God Almighty. He accepted "worship" in the sense of being respected. Only his Father deserved worship as the Almighty. Jesus always pointed to the Father as the Most High, and his God. (John 17:3; John 20:17)
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Amen friend, I could not have said it better.

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keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
marhig said:
Here's the very beginning of revelation

Revelation 1:1

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it*by his angel unto his servant John.

So it says here that God gave revelation to Jesus for Jesus to show to his servants and Jesus signified it to his angel into John

Firstly, Jesus isn't God, because God gave him the revelation. And this is after he's naturally died, if Jesus were God then he would be called God the son by now. And if Jesus was God the son it would read at the beginning of revelation 1 something like this, our God Jesus Christ, who sent revelation by his angel. But it doesn't, it says that Jesus received revelation from God.

Next the angel, this isn't Jesus either, but it sounds like him speaking, because he's saying everything that Jesus is telling him to say, so the angel is delivering a message to John, from Jesus who had revelation from God.

All in heaven are one, one heart, one mind, one voice, and no flesh they are spirit, and all come from one God in varying strengths, they are ministering spirits, and those in heaven are those who when they heard the word of God believed, then through faith they laid down their lives in this world and denied their flesh and didn't live according to their will to do the will of God, following Jesus, and they turned away from the things of this world, those that were last in this world, but they will be first in heaven.

Jesus is the highest of all as he forsook everything for God, he never let Satan in and he never sinned Satan had nothing in him, and God has set him at his right hand. And God is the God and father of all, Jesus included, Jesus who is the Christ the son of the living God. Who has been exalted by God to his right hand and he is over everything now. But God is still his God and father also, just as he is ours. As Jesus said it himself when he said, I go to my father and your father, my God and your God. And Jesus said that his God is the father and he is the only true God.

Also, Jesus is the narrow way, his way is the only way and those who are his sheep hear his voice and follow him. They deny themselves, bare there cross and follow Jesus. These are the true church of Christ who when they hear his voice, follow him and turn from sin and this world and become doers of the word and not hearers only!

Matthew 7

Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

Jesus Christ is that way, he is the truth and his life is the only life follow!
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Great post friend.

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S

SimpleMan77

New member
KingdomRose said:
I ask you to think about this a bit further. Keypurr is absolutely correct to say that Jesus Christ HAS a God, and that is the Father. The Father is Supreme. (Psalm 83:18, KJV)

Revelation 1:8 refers to the Father, not Jesus. Both Jesus and God (the Father) are being spoken about in chapter one. It is perfectly reasonable to say that verse 8 is about the Father. Indeed, verse 9 refers to Jesus AND God. John said that he was on the island of Patmos because he was "speaking about God and bearing witness to Jesus." It is only the Father, God, who is "Almighty."

That leads us into your second reference, at Isaiah 9:6. Most versions of the Bible simply go along with the King James Version there, which is OK, but the Holy Bible from the Aramaic of the Peshitta renders it this way:

"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder: and his name is called 'wonderful counsellor, the mighty one, the everlasting god, the prince of peace.'"

So much for "Everlasting Father." But that can be explained too, if we insist on the KJV. Anyway, we of course know that there are no capital letters in Hebrew/Aramaic, or even in Greek. Jesus is referred to as "god" in perhaps two places in the Bible, but never Almighty God (in upper-case OR lower-case). The "god" that Jesus is is from the Hebrew El Gibbohr, which means "mighty god," NOT Almighty God.

Only Jehovah is referred to as El Shaddai, which is Almighty God.

So the prophecy in Isaiah refers to the Messiah to come, but not Almighty God. He is a "mighty god," meaning that he will be a powerful, important, highly regarded individual. That is what "god" meant to the Jewish audience of Isaiah's day and also in the Apostle John's day. Gods were distinguished from one another by certain titles, such as "El Gibbohr" and "El Shaddai," or, as in John's day, definite articles.

It is interesting that the Jewish Publication Society's Tanakh renders Isaiah 9:6 like this: "He has been named 'the Mighty God is planning grace; the Eternal Father, a peaceable ruler.'" We already know that "Mighty God" just means a powerful person, and only the Father, Jehovah, is Almighty. It could even be referring to Jehovah, as He is called BOTH "mighty" and "almighty." But the Messiah is also called "Eternal Father" here. That must be in the sense that he has given life to someone, as Jesus did when he died for our salvation so that we could live forever. (Even Paul considered himself a spiritual "father" to his believing "children," though he had no fleshly children.)

Jesus never accepted worship as God Almighty. He accepted "worship" in the sense of being respected. Only his Father deserved worship as the Almighty. Jesus always pointed to the Father as the Most High, and his God. (John 17:3; John 20:17)
Click to expand...

Sorry, I'm not interested in "interpolation". Translation from one language to another is quite sufficient. The Book of Isaiah is completely accurate when translated without rewording.

And you're wrong about Jesus not receiving worship. All righteous men and angels rebuked people for falling down and worshipping them. Not only did Thomas worship Him, he said "my Lord and my God", and Jesus not only accepted it, he said that those who would have Thomas's response without seeing Him were more blessed than Thomas, who made that proclamation after seeing Him.

That is only one time. Jesus accepted worship many, many times.


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L

Lilstu

New member
SimpleMan77 said:
Wrong. Number one, the Bible CLEARLY says Jesus is God.

Number 2, say God wanted to become a man. He'd have to "make" the body and the human/divine spirit. The man Christ Jesus was absolutely made by (and inhabited by, thus becoming one with) the eternal, omnipresent God.


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There is no verse that clearly says Jesus is God.
 
S

SimpleMan77

New member
The Trinity

Lilstu said:
There is no verse that clearly says Jesus is God.
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Actually there are scores of them. Here are 2. Isaiah 6 says that Isaiah saw YHWH, and John 12:41 says that Isaiah spake of Jesus.

John 1:1 says that the Word is God, and v.14 says the Word became flesh.

I could go on for a while. God purchased the church with His own blood. Jesus commended Thomas for believing in Him as "My Lord and my God", and pronounced a blessing on all future believers who would believe the same.


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S

SimpleMan77

New member
keypurr said:
So much to learn, so little time to learn it.

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Why did Jesus not only accept Thomas's statement of "my Lord and my God", but He pronounced a blessing upon all who would believe the same thing in the future?

Find another angel that allowed a man to worship him without getting him back on his feet.

Find a godly man who accepted worship.

Only God, Devils and Imposters receive worship.


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keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
Actually there are scores of them. Here are 2. Isaiah 6 says that Isaiah saw YHWH, and John 12:41 says that Isaiah spake of Jesus.

John 1:1 says that the Word is God, and v.14 says the Word became flesh.

I could go on for a while. God purchased the church with His own blood. Jesus commended Thomas for believing in Him as "My Lord and my God", and pronounced a blessing on all future believers who would believe the same.


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Click to expand...

My God is a spirit and does not bleed. How many Gods do you have?
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
SimpleMan77 said:
Why did Jesus not only accept Thomas's statement of "my Lord and my God", but He pronounced a blessing upon all who would believe the same thing in the future?

Find another angel that allowed a man to worship him without getting him back on his feet.

Find a godly man who accepted worship.

Only God, Devils and Imposters receive worship.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL
Click to expand...

John 20 Thomas said

Thomas' worship of the risen Jesus as "My Lord and my God"

This is why Jesus did not rebuke Thomas when he fell at his feet and worshiped the risen Lord. Not because Jesus knew himself to be Jehovah God and this fact had finally dawned on Thomas. Rather, it was homage it proffered to Jesus as God's ordained Messiah. Jesus can be worshiped as the Lord Messiah. In fact, this is clearly what the writer John means by reporting this incident, for the very next two verses say that these things "have been written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ (Messiah), the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in his name" (John 20:31).

To say that Thomas was worshiping Jesus as Almighty God is to directly contradict John's own stated purpose for writing his whole Gospel. When Thomas fell at Jesus' feet and worshiped him, Thomas was at last recognizing that the resurrected Jesus was the long promised Lord Messiah. Thomas' language it was steeped in Old Testament concepts.

Remember when David stepped out of the cave and call to King Saul, "My Lord and my King" (1 Sam. 24:9)? In the same way King Messiah is to be worshiped and adored by his bride: "Then the King will desire your beauty; because he is your Lord, bow down to him" (Ps.45:11). Thomas' language is in the same Hebrew tradition. He means the same thing. Thomas is addressing the rightful king of Israel, the now risen and victorious Lord. We just have to think like first century Jews steeped in their Old Testament prophets! "A Savior has been born for you who is Messiah and Lord" (Luke 2:11). The wise men believe the infant Jesus was the King of Israel they brought their gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh to worship him: "Where is the one who has been born King of the Jews? We saw his star in the East and have come to worship him They bowed down and worshiped him" (Matt. 2:2, 11). "God has made him both Lord and Messiah, this Jesus whom you crucified" (Acts 2:36). Worship is offered to Jesus because he is the Messiah, the Son of God, the King of Israel. We have already seen that in Jewish understanding, the word "God" can refer to one who represents the Almighty God (Exodus 7:1, etc.). The King of Israel could be called "god" because he represented God to the people. Thomas knew the Old Testament prophecies that the Messiah was to be called "god" for he was to represent Jehovah perfectly. Thomas' worship was that of a Jew deeply grounded in the Old Testament faith that God is one Jehovah and that the Messiah is also called "god" in a relative and royal rather than an absolute sense. Psalm 45:7 says of the Messiah, "You have loved righteousness, and hated wickedness; therefore God, your God, has anointed you with the oil of joy above your fellows."

Evidently this anointed one has a God above him: Jehovah is he is God. Come to think of it, isn't this what Jesus himself said just a few verses before he received Thomas' worship? "Stop clinging to me: for I have not yet ascended to the father; but go to my brethren, and say to them, 'I ascend to my Father and your Father, and my God and your God'" (John 20:17).

Exalted in heaven right now Jesus still calls the Lord God Almighty "my God" and "my Father" (Rev. 3:2, 5, 12). The Lord God is still called "his Godand Father" (Rev. 1:6). In the Revelation there is always "our God" and "His Christ" (Rev. 12:10; 20:6) or "the Lord God, the Almighty, and the lamb" (Rev. 6:16; 21:22; 21:1, 3). Yes, in good Hebrew understanding, Thomas' worship preserves this Biblical distinction:

Lord and Messiah = Lord and king= Lord and god

Jesus' creed is that his Father is "the only true God" and that he himself is the Messiah whom that one God has commissioned. He defines this knowledge as "eternal life." (John 17:3). In all matters because on that great and unique day in the age to come, "Every knee will bow and every tongue will confess that Jesus the Messiah is Lord, to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11). The worship we give to our glorious Lord Jesus Christ is worship that is ultimately given to his God and our God, to his Father and our Father.

These notes are from my friend Pierac.
 
R

Rivers

New member
Lilstu said:
I think that you need to read Hebrews 1:8 in context.

God made man a little lower than angels [Hebrews 2:7]

Now look at Hebrew 1:8 in context......


4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
7And of the angels He says,
"WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." 8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.

The writer of Hebrews is trying to prove that Jesus has inherited a position which is higher than the angels.
If the writer of Hebrews believed that Jesus is God Almighty himself, this argument would be ludicrous. Of course God Almighty is higher than the angels. But the writer attempts to show that a man, Jesus, has inherited a higher position than the angels.
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Well said :)
 
S

SimpleMan77

New member
keypurr said:
My God is a spirit and does not bleed. How many Gods do you have?
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I have 1. He loved me enough to become a man just so He could die for me. He wasn't so cowardly that He stayed hidden while requiring someone else to do it. The one Father of eternity took on flesh and showed His love!!!


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R

Rivers

New member
keypurr said:
the word BECAME flesh
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John 1:14 can be taken as a resurrection text (and not an incarnation text). Jesus appeared to the apostles as "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39) after he came out of the tomb. This could be what they are describing in 1 John 1:1-2 as well.
 
R

Rivers

New member
SimpleMan77 said:
Why did Jesus not only accept Thomas's statement of "my Lord and my God", but He pronounced a blessing upon all who would believe the same thing in the future?
Click to expand...

The statement Thomas made in John 20:28 is referring to two different beings who were in two different locations. The writer of the 4th Gospel already established that "my Lord" was a title referring to Jesus (who was on earth, John 20:13) and "my God" was a title for the Father (who was in heaven, John 20:17).
 
keypurr

keypurr

Well-known member
Rivers said:
John 1:14 can be taken as a resurrection text (and not an incarnation text). Jesus appeared to the apostles as "flesh and bones" (Luke 24:39) after he came out of the tomb. This could be what they are describing in 1 John 1:1-2 as well.
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Nope, I disagree. It speaks of the spirit son who was at the creation. All things were created by the Father through the son.

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