I do not understand them for they are not from God. God is not the author of confusion.
The Trinity
- Thread starter Bright Raven
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I do not understand them for they are not from God. God is not the author of confusion.
I said
I used to wonder, but no more. You became hard hearted on the trinity. Which made you lukewarm.
You crack me up Squeaky.
2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
SimpleMan77
New member
The Trinity
[MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] I still have not seen anyone answer this simple question:
Hebrews 1:1-2 says that the God who spoke in the Old Testament through the prophets has a son, making the one who spoke to Isaiah The Father.
The Father said the following: Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; (Isaiah 44:24)
Also: Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
The New Testament says in multiple places that all things were made by and for Jesus.
4 choices here:
1. The Father is taking credit for doing something alone when He really had help, making Him a liar
2. The New Testament was mistaking: Jesus really did not make anything
3. The passage in Hebrews is mistaking: the Father was not the one who spoke to the prophets
4. Jesus is The Father who became a man
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[MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] I still have not seen anyone answer this simple question:
Hebrews 1:1-2 says that the God who spoke in the Old Testament through the prophets has a son, making the one who spoke to Isaiah The Father.
The Father said the following: Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself; (Isaiah 44:24)
Also: Isaiah 43:10-11 Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside me there is no saviour.
The New Testament says in multiple places that all things were made by and for Jesus.
4 choices here:
1. The Father is taking credit for doing something alone when He really had help, making Him a liar
2. The New Testament was mistaking: Jesus really did not make anything
3. The passage in Hebrews is mistaking: the Father was not the one who spoke to the prophets
4. Jesus is The Father who became a man
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I think that you need to read Hebrews 1:8 in context.
God made man a little lower than angels [Hebrews 2:7]
Now look at Hebrew 1:8 in context......
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
7And of the angels He says,
"WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." 8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
The writer of Hebrews is trying to prove that Jesus has inherited a position which is higher than the angels.
If the writer of Hebrews believed that Jesus is God Almighty himself, this argument would be ludicrous. Of course God Almighty is higher than the angels. But the writer attempts to show that a man, Jesus, has inherited a higher position than the angels.
God made man a little lower than angels [Hebrews 2:7]
Now look at Hebrew 1:8 in context......
4having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
5For to which of the angels did He ever say,
"YOU ARE MY SON,
TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU"?
And again,
"I WILL BE A FATHER TO HIM
AND HE SHALL BE A SON TO ME"?
6And when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says,
"AND LET ALL THE ANGELS OF GOD WORSHIP HIM."
7And of the angels He says,
"WHO MAKES HIS ANGELS WINDS,
AND HIS MINISTERS A FLAME OF FIRE." 8But of the Son He says,
"YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER,
AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
The writer of Hebrews is trying to prove that Jesus has inherited a position which is higher than the angels.
If the writer of Hebrews believed that Jesus is God Almighty himself, this argument would be ludicrous. Of course God Almighty is higher than the angels. But the writer attempts to show that a man, Jesus, has inherited a higher position than the angels.
I think if you understand the Trinity you will have no problem understanding and answering the question you have asked. The Father is God, Jesus is God, the Holy Spirit is God. Answer your question with that understanding.
Lets look at the story of the woman at the well in John's Gospel.....
Jesus said............
John 4:21-24 NASB
21Jesus said to her, "Woman, believe Me, an hour is coming when neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father.
22"You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews.
23"But an hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for such people the Father seeks to be His worshipers. 24"God is spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."
Examine verse 22 carefully. Jesus is saying......
""You worship what you do not know; we [Jews] worship what we know""
The Jews have never worshipped a triune god. Even to this very day they do not worship triune god.
Examine verse 23 carefully.........
""true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth""
Jesus doesn't say "worship God"" he says ""worship the Father "" because he knows that only the Father is God.
Examine verse 24 carefully.......
""God is spirit""
But Jesus is flesh. If he were God and he said ""God is spirit"", he would not be correct.
SimpleMan77
New member
If you're referring to my question, and there really is a Trinity, either one member of the trinity is claiming to be God all by Himself or God in that place is speaking as a composite.
If God is speaking as a composite, that makes for a lot of big problems for the Trinitarian mindset. Hebrews 1:1-2 would be saying that the Triune God had a son, making Jesus 1/3 his own daddy.
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Taken from CARM.org
The following quotes show that the doctrine of the Trinity was indeed alive-and-well before the Council of Nicea:
Polycarp (70-155/160). Bishop of Smyrna. Disciple of John the Apostle.
"O Lord God almighty . . . I bless you and glorify you through the eternal and heavenly high priest Jesus Christ, your beloved Son, through whom be glory to you, with Him and the Holy Spirit, both now and forever" (n. 14, ed. Funk; PG 5.1040).
Justin Martyr (100?-165?). He was a Christian apologist and martyr.
"For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water" (First Apol., LXI).
Ignatius of Antioch (died 98/117). Bishop of Antioch. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"In Christ Jesus our Lord, by whom and with whom be glory and power to the Father with the Holy Spirit for ever" (n. 7; PG 5.988).
"We have also as a Physician the Lord our God Jesus the Christ the only-begotten Son and Word, before time began, but who afterwards became also man, of Mary the virgin. For ‘the Word was made flesh.' Being incorporeal, He was in the body; being impassible, He was in a passable body; being immortal, He was in a mortal body; being life, He became subject to corruption, that He might free our souls from death and corruption, and heal them, and might restore them to health, when they were diseased with ungodliness and wicked lusts." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 1, p. 52, Ephesians 7.)
Irenaeus (115-190). As a boy he listened to Polycarp, the disciple of John. He became Bishop of Lyons.
"The Church, though dispersed throughout the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: . . . one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father ‘to gather all things in one,' and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Savior, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, ‘every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess; to him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all . . . '" (Against Heresies X.l)
Tertullian (160-215). African apologist and theologian. He wrote much in defense of Christianity.
"We define that there are two, the Father and the Son, and three with the Holy Spirit, and this number is made by the pattern of salvation . . . [which] brings about unity in trinity, interrelating the three, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. They are three, not in dignity, but in degree, not in substance but in form, not in power but in kind. They are of one substance and power, because there is one God from whom these degrees, forms and kinds devolve in the name of Father, Son and Holy Spirit." (Adv. Prax. 23; PL 2.156-7).
Origen (185-254). Alexandrian theologian. Defended Christianity and wrote much about Christianity.
"If anyone would say that the Word of God or the Wisdom of God had a beginning, let him beware lest he direct his impiety rather against the unbegotten Father, since he denies that he was always Father, and that he has always begotten the Word, and that he always had wisdom in all previous times or ages or whatever can be imagined in priority . . . There can be no more ancient title of almighty God than that of Father, and it is through the Son that he is Father" (De Princ. 1.2.; PG 11.132).
"For if [the Holy Spirit were not eternally as He is, and had received knowledge at some time and then became the Holy Spirit] this were the case, the Holy Spirit would never be reckoned in the unity of the Trinity, i.e., along with the unchangeable Father and His Son, unless He had always been the Holy Spirit." (Alexander Roberts and James Donaldson, eds., The Ante-Nicene Fathers, Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1975 rpt., Vol. 4, p. 253, de Principiis, 1.111.4)
"Moreover, nothing in the Trinity can be called greater or less, since the fountain of divinity alone contains all things by His word and reason, and by the Spirit of His mouth sanctifies all things which are worthy of sanctification . . . " (Roberts and Donaldson, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol. 4, p. 255, de Principii., I. iii. 7).
All of the quotes your cited are open to interpretation. Not all Christians who read Polycarp, Justin Martyr, Ignatius, or Iraeneus agree with the interpretation given in your source. These ancient writers also believed a lot of other goofy things that even modern Trinitarians don't agree with.
Most Christians that I know would rather base their understanding of Christology on what Jesus and the apostles were teaching rather than the opinion of a handful of people who lived several generations later. The teaching of the apostles was already being corrupted during the First Century (1 Timothy 1:3-4) and there were people claiming they got their false teachings from the apostles (2 Thessalonians 2:2).
SimpleMan77
New member
Well said.
If you don't think original intent can be corrupted in a few decades look at the judges scattered across the land who have decided an unborn baby has no rights under the constitution. We went from that horror not being even thought of by the majority of Americans to mainstream in a few short years.
I'll go back to the true Apostolic authority found in God's word!!
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SimpleMan77
New member
[MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] I never did get your response to my post, repeated below.
If you're referring to my question, and there really is a Trinity, either one member of the trinity is claiming to be God all by Himself or God in that place is speaking as a composite.
If God is speaking as a composite, that makes for a lot of big problems for the Trinitarian mindset. Hebrews 1:1-2 would be saying that the Triune God had a son, making Jesus 1/3 his own daddy.
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If you're referring to my question, and there really is a Trinity, either one member of the trinity is claiming to be God all by Himself or God in that place is speaking as a composite.
If God is speaking as a composite, that makes for a lot of big problems for the Trinitarian mindset. Hebrews 1:1-2 would be saying that the Triune God had a son, making Jesus 1/3 his own daddy.
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SimpleMan77
New member
[MENTION=4465]Bright Raven[/MENTION] I'll take your long silence on this as an "I don't know" (from both times that I posted it). Truth is, there is no Trinitarian answer.
The only answer is that the one Father of the OT personally came as a man. He did create the worlds by Himself. It's also true that Jesus created the worlds, because they are one and the same.
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Rosenritter
New member
That's the conclusion I reached, though not exactly through that route.
Hi,
When Hebrews 1:2 says that Jesus "made the ages (AIWNAS)", it was referring to what happened as a result of him being "appointed heir of all things." The "ages" refers the people of faith from the previous "ages" (Hebrews 11:3) who were waiting to receive the promise of eternal life.
There's no reason to reverse the order in Hebrews 1:2 can claim that Jesus "made the ages" before he was "appointed heir of all things." Likewise, in John 1:10, it was because Jesus was "in the world" that "the world became through him."
When Hebrews 1:2 says that Jesus "made the ages (AIWNAS)", it was referring to what happened as a result of him being "appointed heir of all things." The "ages" refers the people of faith from the previous "ages" (Hebrews 11:3) who were waiting to receive the promise of eternal life.
There's no reason to reverse the order in Hebrews 1:2 can claim that Jesus "made the ages" before he was "appointed heir of all things." Likewise, in John 1:10, it was because Jesus was "in the world" that "the world became through him."
:nono:
SimpleMan77
New member
The Trinity
So, who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24?
"Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"
Is this the Father speaking, the Son speaking, or God speaking as a composite?
According to Hebrews 1:1-2 this is the Father speaking, and taking credit for creating everything "alone" and "by myself".
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So, who is speaking in Isaiah 44:24?
"Thus saith the Lord, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the Lord that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;"
Is this the Father speaking, the Son speaking, or God speaking as a composite?
According to Hebrews 1:1-2 this is the Father speaking, and taking credit for creating everything "alone" and "by myself".
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themuzicman
Well-known member
The trinity is discovered from how the bible teaches us about God.
Look at this verse..........
Hebrews 3:2 KJV
Who [Jesus] was faithful to him that appointed him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
The word that is translated as ""appointed"" in this verse, is "poieo", Strong's word #4160. This word, "poieo", is used over 500 times in the Greek New Testament. The usual meaing of "poieo" is "to make, to do". On only one occasion, the above verse Hebrews 3:2, is the word ever translated as ""appointed"" .
IMO Hebrews 3:2 should be translated as ......
Who [Jesus] was faithful to him that made him, as also Moses was faithful in all his house.
If Jesus was made by God, then he could not be God.