ECT The Man of Romans 7 is a Believer

[Tambora]

Contribute.

 

[God's Truth]

It wasn't that the law taught them bad things. It's that sin uses the law to become even more sinful. It's the concept of the "forbidden fruit".

I do not see it quite like that. I see it more like this:

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


The law telling us not to do this and not to do that…it aroused passions in us, and we sinned.

No, they only thought they obeyed the commands blamelessly...they were comfortable and felt alive. Paul considered himself blameless under the law as a Pharisee, but when the "law came" (meaning that conviction of sin) he died. It's that aha moment when one realized their very thoughts make them guilty.

Do you really think that I would say something and not have scripture?

You have to note that there were people who obeyed all the commands blamelessly.


Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

He's showing how the law interacts with sin, and how the law is a springboard for sin. His main point is that the law was never intended to make men holy. It was intended to show men their sin and lead them to Christ.

The thing is, people could obey and did obey the old law.

 

[glorydaz]

True, but he is contrasting between that reality and what people end up doing: they attempt to serve in the flesh (in their own strength).

Thus his "know ye not?" questions to his reader.

Because Romans is a template written to the Body of Christ at Rome; the very epicenter of that ancient world.

Their faith was spoken of throughout that vast world of the then mighty Roman Empire; the headquaters of said mighty Empire like few in history, being Rome itself.

What a better group to write Romans to that he might have some fruit through them as they went about their living faithfulness witness throughout that vast empire.

So he writes Romans; a veritable bootcamp Bible conference within which all sorts of establishment issues are covered.

Towards establishing them in and understanding of core operating principles - how this over here works, how that over there works, and so on...

Romans is establishment truth meant to establish the saved in an understanding of many and various key issues the Body member is to be clear in...

Establishment in an understanding of the lost; how they got that way; how they see the world; what the solution is...

And in an understanding of what it means to be saved; who such are; how and where they are to look at things and operate from, within their new identity...what some main pitfalls are and how to solve for them...

And in an understanding of what's become of Israel...

And so on...

Yes, I know that many people think as you do. I totally disagree. Paul is explaining to the Jews (who were upset about his teaching) how the law works and it's purposes.

You're simply not seeing the forest for the trees.

 

[glorydaz]

You could have better used your time to contribute to the subject of the thread.

You too, Tambora.

Funny, but I see your "contribution" as a bunch of mumbo jumbo. It's clear that Paul is teaching how sin uses the holy law of God to slay us. It's an incredible teaching, but so many people get bogged down in vain surmising. So vain that they end up claiming Paul was a wretched man...sold under sin (when he wrote his letter). I'm not saying you claim that, because I can't really make heads or tails of what you ARE saying. Clearly, though, you don't agree with me.

 

[glorydaz]

I do not see it quite like that. I see it more like this:

4 So, my brothers and sisters, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God. 5 For when we were in the realm of the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in us, so that we bore fruit for death. 6 But now, by dying to what once bound us, we have been released from the law so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.


The law telling us not to do this and not to do that…it aroused passions in us, and we sinned.

True, and what is needed? Death. Not our physical death, but the death of the old man (crucified with Christ). Indeed, the law arouses passions in us which is the forbidden fruit I mentioned.

Do you really think that I would say something and not have scripture?

I have no doubt you think the scripture you offer addresses the issue.

You have to note that there were people who obeyed all the commands blamelessly.


Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

The thing is, people could obey and did obey the old law.

Being "blameless under the law" is what Paul claimed he was prior to being saved. He was persecuting and killing Christians. According to our Lord, he was kicking against the goads.

Clearly, they didn't obey the law perfectly or they wouldn't have needed to make sacrifices. Until the law was used lawfully (to convict man of sin), man often believed he was blameless.

 

[God's Truth]

True, and what is needed? Death. Not our physical death, but the death of the old man (crucified with Christ). Indeed, the law arouses passions in us which is the forbidden fruit I mentioned.






I have no doubt you think the scripture you offer addresses the issue.





Being "blameless under the law" is what Paul claimed he was prior to being saved. He was persecuting and killing Christians. According to our Lord, he was kicking against the goads.

Clearly, they didn't obey the law perfectly or they wouldn't have needed to make sacrifices. Until the law was used lawfully (to convict man of sin), man often believed he was blameless.

I. gave. you. scripture. that. plainly. says. there. were. people. who. obeyed. the. law. blamelessly.

 

[Danoh]

I. gave. you. scripture. that. plainly. says. there. were. people. who. obeyed. the. law. blamelessly.

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How long was this blameless keeping of the Law?

Luke 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. 1:20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Apparantly, his blameless keeping of the Law did not last too long :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

All kidding aside, what it meant to be blameless under the Law was to keep the Law; including doing what the Law called for when one screwed up, under the Law.

And though that was Paul in his Philippians 3 account concerning his life back when he was lost; it is not him in his account in Romans 7.

There he is not only wretched that he is unable to serve, but he is also not blameless.

There he finds himself without the recourse those under the Law had had back when the Law was the schoolmaster.

They had a recourse.

One can safely bet that King David was sure glad he had a recourse under the Law.

Things that are different, are not...the same.

And what Paul is dealing with in Romans 7 is his sense that the Law is not working for him.

Because there is no more sacrifice for sin. He has no answer this time.

Good. That only made him more human than he is often depicted.

Able to understand firsthand what he was advising others as to the issues that living the Grace Life meets with in one.

Where some get the idea that Paul was an instant expert on how to serve under Grace the moment he was saved is in their own minds.

Paul clearly depicts himself here and there in his Epistles as undergoing a learning curve in his own understanding of things himself as to how this or that works within the Grace Life.

Even years later, the Lord had to straighten him out on one thing or another, at times.

Just as had been the case throughout with Paul's great counter part in Scripture; Moses.

 

[God's Truth]

All kidding aside, what it meant to be blameless under the Law was to keep the Law; including doing what the Law called for when one screwed up, under the Law.

And though that was Paul in his Philippians 3 account concerning his life back when he was lost; it is not him in his account in Romans 7.

There he is not only wretched that he is unable to serve, but he is also not blameless.

There he finds himself without the recourse those under the Law had had back when the Law was the schoolmaster.

They had a recourse.

One can safely bet that King David was sure glad he had a recourse under the Law.

Things that are different, are not...the same.

And what Paul is dealing with in Romans 7 is his sense that the Law is not working for him.

Because there is no more sacrifice for sin. He has no answer this time.

Good. That only made him more human than he is often depicted.

Able to understand firsthand what he was advising others as to the issues that living the Grace Life meets with in one.

Where some get the idea that Paul was an instant expert on how to serve under Grace the moment he was saved is in their own minds.

Paul clearly depicts himself here and there in his Epistles as undergoing a learning curve in his own understanding of things himself as to how this or that works within the Grace Life.

Even years later, the Lord had to straighten him out on one thing or another, at times.

Just as had been the case throughout with Paul's great counter part in Scripture; Moses.

You do not seem to know the difference between Paul's blameless...from those whom Jesus called blameless. Aw there's the rub.

 

[God's Truth]

Luke 1:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

How long was this blameless keeping of the Law?

Luke 1:18 And Zacharias said unto the angel, Whereby shall I know this? for I am an old man, and my wife well stricken in years. 1:19 And the angel answering said unto him, I am Gabriel, that stand in the presence of God; and am sent to speak unto thee, and to shew thee these glad tidings. 1:20 And, behold, thou shalt be dumb, and not able to speak, until the day that these things shall be performed, because thou believest not my words, which shall be fulfilled in their season.

Apparantly, his blameless keeping of the Law did not last too long :chuckle:

You have strayed and do not understand, stay focused...they blamelessly obeyed God...they did what God said to do according to the law, AND they did it with a right heart. See, many Jews did what the law said to do, but they did not do it with a right heart. God did not like it when someone obeyed the law as only a work, they would bring a sin offering but not really be sorry for their sin. That is NOT Zachariah and Elizabeth, for they obeyed the law blamelessly that means with a righteous HEART.

Think about it deeper...to be called one to be obeying the law blamelessly, or to blamelessly obey the law...

Can you see the difference?

 

[Danoh]

You have strayed and do not understand, stay focused...they blamelessly obeyed God...they did what God said to do according to the law, AND they did it with a right heart. See, many Jews did what the law said to do, but they did not do it with a right heart. God did not like it when someone obeyed the law as only a work, they would bring a sin offering but not really be sorry for their sin. That is NOT Zachariah and Elizabeth, for they obeyed the law blamelessly that means with a righteous HEART.

Think about it deeper...to be called one to be obeying the law blamelessly, or to blamelessly obey the law...

Can you see the difference?

How was Zechariah's failure to believe the Angel Gabriel blameless?

You remain clueless about what you read.

 

[Danoh]

doctrine pitfalls & solutions
lifestyle pitfalls & solutions
dispensation pitfalls & solutions

Exactly the point I was making in that post :thumb:

 

[Danoh]

doctrine pitfalls & solutions
lifestyle pitfalls & solutions
dispensation pitfalls & solutions

Yes, I know that many people think as you do. I totally disagree. Paul is explaining to the Jews (who were upset about his teaching) how the law works and it's purposes.

You're simply not seeing the forest for the trees.

Talk about reading into a thing - you say "he was explaining to the Jews who were upset about his teaching"?

I take it then that they had gotten a copy of Paul's letter to the Romans before he even wrote Romans to them?

Yeah, sure, you know what you are talking about :chuckle:

There were no issues at Rome - their great faith was well known throughout the Roman world.

Rather; Romans anticipates issues that can come up within the life of a believer and or within an assembly that the Romans might be established (equipped in the understanding of such things when they do arise).

Romans 6: Dead to sin; Romans 7: Dead to the Law; Romans 8; Dead to the Flesh.

All three of which comprise the principles of how to look at each of those three issues both individually, as well as, as one unit.

And Paul had touched on Romans 7 issues some ten years earlier in Galatians; especially in the latter section of Galatians 2.

Galatians being a reminder to the Galatians of all he had established them in the understanding of even earlier than when he wrote Galatians.

The point is that when Paul wrote Romans, he addressed issues his past experiences had long since taught him were likely to come up.

It is one of many reasons why Romans is one of the most important Books in all of Scripture.

1 Corinthians 2 mentions that hidden wisdom God ordained before the world unto our glory - well Romans contains much of that wisdom unto the Body's glory just as Israel's glory had been that aspect of God's will revealed to; through; and for them: The Law.

I know; mumbo jumbo.

You rookie :chuckle:

 

[God's Truth]

How was Zechariah's failure to believe the Angel Gabriel blameless?

You remain clueless about what you read.

Zechariah doubted. JESUS says he was blameless. Who are you to go against what Jesus says?

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus says that Zachariah was blameless...Danoh is going against that. Think about it.

Why is Danoh speaking to me against me about Zachariah being blameless?!

Does not Jesus say he was blameless?

Yes, he does.

Do Zachariah doubt? Yes he did, as did Peter when he walked on the water.

Does that mean you are a sinner who does not obey? NO.

Danoh is a confused person who goes against the Word of God.

Jesus says Zachariah was blameless.

So who are you to go against Jesus?

 

[Tambora]

I was hoping you wouldn't bow out before we could really discuss a couple of things....and here it looks like I've run you off already.

I'll discuss with ya.
:cheers:

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Jesus says that Zachariah was blameless...Danoh is going against that. Think about it.

Why is Danoh speaking to me against me about Zachariah being blameless?!

Does not Jesus say he was blameless?

Yes, he does.

Do Zachariah doubt? Yes he did, as did Peter when he walked on the water.

Does that mean you are a sinner who does not obey? NO.

Danoh is a confused person who goes against the Word of God.

Jesus says Zachariah was blameless.

So who are you to go against Jesus?

Jesus, "I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." Luke 7:28

Why? Following the law is an exercise of the self, of one's pride, an endeavor of being good, righteous in one's own right, in oneself.

Paul puts like this: "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness." Romans 10:2-3

Our pride, our self is in opposition to God. It is only in humilty, contriteness and of Christ that we can do what He wills.
"I can do all things through Him, who strengthens me." Phillipians 4:13

Christ and His blood, His love and sacrifice breaks us down in a way not possible before Him.

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus, "I tell you, among those born of women none is greater than John. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he." Luke 7:28

Why? Following the law is an exercise of the self, of one's pride, an endeavor of being good, righteous in one's own right, in oneself.

No, not all of it. That is nonsense. How do you ever get that obeying God is prideful?

Paul puts like this: "For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge.

See, you are speaking about what Paul calls not of knowledge.

For being ignorant of the righteousness of God and seeking to establish their own, they did not submit to God's righteousness." Romans 10:2-3

That scripture means they did not recognize that Jesus was from God.

Our pride, our self is in opposition to God. It is only in humilty, contriteness and of Christ that we can do what He wills.
"I can do all things through Him, who strengthens me." Phillipians 4:13

Christ and His blood, His love and sacrifice breaks us down in a way not possible before Him.

You are dead wrong, for it is never ever right to not obey. I hope you make more of an effort to understand.

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

No, not all of it. That is nonsense. How do you ever get that obeying God is prideful?



See, you are speaking what about what Paul calls not of knowledge.




That scripture means they did not recognize that Jesus was from God.



You are dead wrong, for it is never ever right to not obey. I hope you make more of an effort to understand.

Is your story about what you have done on your own? Or is it a story of what you have done "through Him(Jesus) who strengthens..." (Philippians 4:13)?

 

[God's Truth]

Is your story about what you have done on your own? Or is it a story of what you have done "through Him(Jesus) who strengthens..." (Philippians 4:13)?

Christ strengthens those whom he saves, and he saves those who believe and obey in him.