ECT The Man of Romans 7 is a Believer

[musterion]

If Christ is the believer's life, I'm unsure what a believer "trying to live for God in his own strength" even means.

 

[Danoh]

If Christ is the believer's life, I'm unsure what a believer "trying to live for God in his own strength" even means.

Depends on your definition of "Christ is the believer's life" - on how that "life" operates, works, or functions.

 

[musterion]

Depends on your definition of "Christ is the believer's life" - on how that "life" operates, works, or functions.

I take it to mean exactly and simply that. His life is the believer's life, just as a body's life is the same life in each part of it. Believers are His Body; as their Head, He is their life...not lives, life.

Can't think of another way to figure it, don't feel the need to try.


Gal 2:20; Col 1:27, 3:4,

 

[Danoh]

I take it to mean exactly and simply that. His life is the believer's life, just as a body's life is the same life in each part of it. Believers are His Body; as their Head, He is their life...not lives, life.

Can't think of another way to figure it, don't feel the need to try.


Gal 2:20; Col 1:27, 3:4,

So much for your "If Christ is the believer's life, I'm unsure what a believer "trying to live for God in his own strength" even means." :chuckle:

 

[musterion]

One of us misunderstands the other. Don't feel the need to try.

 

[Danoh]

One of us misunderstands the other. Don't feel the need to try.

Perhaps...

 

[Danoh]

Are all Christians carnal?

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

Paul is noting a distinction between two realities within the Believer. As in...

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Because the Law is spiritual; the flesh - being that it is the flesh - is not subject to the Law; it does at it pleases.

And what its' pleasure is...is its' pleasure in going against the Law; in going its' own way.

That is the carnal Paul referring to - his flesh; which is wholly sold over to sin; to transgression.

So that you find you can not do what the Law commands; you find an inner conflict.

Solution?

Find out how the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus that you now have in Him - find out how this life that you now have in Christ Jesus works - and walk in, or mind...that - and you will not walk in, mind, or obey the lusts of the flesh.

"Against such...there is no" need for the "law" towards regulating their walk.

For theirs is a "walk...in newness of life; not in oldness of the letter..."

Its all a matter of setting out to understand the mechanics of those two walks, so that we know how each works, or operates...followed by our choosing to walk in the one...by faith in an inteligent understanding of these things, rather than walk in the other, via our own notions and perceptions of the flesh in our ignorance outside of time in the Word studying the details of these things out...

"Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding..."

"I pray with my understanding..."

Its all about clearly understanding these things and then walking in said understanding...by faith.

Absent of that, we are left at the mercy of our own ignorance...

 

[jamie]

Paul is noting a distinction between two realities within the Believer. As in...

It's an allegory.

 

[Danoh]

It's an allegory.

Ignorance always says that.

For it is obvious in Scripture that Paul himself had also had his moments in the fleshly mind's perspective.

 

[glorydaz]

No, because he didn't say that. He did not thank God that with the flesh he is bound, as if by law, to serve the sin which indwells it. That's what flesh does. That's ALL it does. He simply stated it as a fact because it is a fact for now.

Actually, Musty, I think you're making a distinction that Paul didn't. If you take that statement at face value, you have to admit he was thanking God that we serve sin in the flesh. Paul quite often makes an exclamation (like a Praise God) and then adds a summation of his previous teaching.

Notice two very important things...

1. Paul starts this section telling us not to be ignorant of our death to law and condemnation. Why would he begin with that? Why would we need told this if there's not a problem here?

2. Because Paul clearly distinguishes the flesh that sins as now completely separate from his NEW life and identity in Christ...which is a distinction many people today do not make. This, I believe, is the key to your question.

He...the new man...is still trapped with the body of sin for now, but God says it is no longer him and he is no longer it. In God's view they are as separate from one another as sin is from Christ. Why? Because He is the believer's life.

We are counted as having died to flesh and sin and Paul says that's right where our freedom in our walk lies. That's what this section is about.

So the new man--the true Paul, the only one God acknowledges--is not under condemnation because of the flesh that can do nothing BUT sin (Rom 7:18). THE NEW MAN CANNOT SIN.

Old man, New man. One already condemned, the other already counted as died and so beyond all condemnation (Rom 8:1). Gotta see the difference.

I find it helps to read Rom 5-8, as much as possible, as a complete unit with no chapter stops. I white them out.



Yes, the NEW man does not. But the OLD man, who we are to be constantly putting off, can and does. That's Paul's point, here and elsewhere.

Paul says to reckon yourself so....dead to sin. Sin has no more dominion over you. I believe what you're saying gives man an excuse to continue to walk according to the old man, which is just what we're not to do. Nor do we have to. I see most of Romans 7 as an aside....specifically to show the man under the law why the law is not compatible with the spiritual life.

To claim sin still resides in our flesh is contrary to what Paul teaches. We do not HAVE to do anything wrong. We are the servants of righteousness. It's only when we fall for satan's lie or give ourselves an excuse (I can't help myself) that we do that which is not profitable.

Romans 6:17-18 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you. Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.​

 

[glorydaz]

Ignorance always says that.

For it is obvious in Scripture that Paul himself had also had his moments in the fleshly mind's perspective.

He'd be the first to say he didn't have to.

 

[glorydaz]

The apostle Paul was saved when he wrote Ro 7. lain:

O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? [Rom. 7:24].

"This is not an unsaved man who is crying, “O wretched man that I am”; this is a saved man. The word wretched carries with it the note of exhaustion because of the struggle. “Who is going to deliver me?” He is helpless. His shoulders are pinned to the floor—he has been wrestled down. Like old Jacob, he has been crippled. He is calling for help from the outside." McGee, J. V. (1991). Thru the Bible commentary: The Epistles (Romans 1-8) (electronic ed., Vol. 42, pp. 133–134). Nashville: Thomas Nelson.

See:

Ro 7, 8 The Outline Bible

Paul was not saved when he was a Pharisee (under the law) and struggling to do what the law demanded. That's the point. There was no indwelling Spirit. So, as long as a man desires to do right, but can't carry it off, he is a worker - not saved and walking according to the Spirit....not empowered by the Spirit.

 

[Danoh]

He'd be the first to say he didn't have to.

Yep.

And how are you? You are sorely missed, dear sister!

You're out of touch
I'm out of time (time)
But I'm out of my head
When you're not around
Oh, oh-oh, oh
Oh, oh-oh, oh

- Hall and Oats

 

[serpentdove]

Paul was not saved when he was a Pharisee (under the law) and struggling to do what the law demanded. That's the point. There was no indwelling Spirit. So, as long as a man desires to do right, but can't carry it off, he is a worker - not saved and walking according to the Spirit....not empowered by the Spirit.

Paul wrote Romans 7 as a saved man. :dizzy:

Related:

Lordship

"Ro 7:24 wretched man. In frustration and grief, Paul laments his sin (cf. Pss. 38:14; 130:1–5). A believer perceives his own sinfulness in direct proportion to how clearly he sees the holiness of God and perfection of His law. deliver. This word means “to rescue from danger” and was used of a soldier pulling his wounded comrade from the battlefield. Paul longed to be rescued from his sinful flesh (cf. 8:23). body of death. The believer’s unredeemed humanness, which has its base of operation in the body (see notes on 6:6, 12; 7:5). Tradition says that an ancient tribe near Tarsus tied the corpse of a murder victim to its murderer, allowing its spreading decay to slowly infect and execute the murderer—perhaps that is the image Paul has in mind.

7:25 The first half of this verse answers the question Paul just raised (v. 24)—he is certain that Christ will eventually rescue him when He returns (cf. 8:18, 23; 1 Cor. 15:52, 53, 56, 57; 2 Cor. 5:4). The second half summarizes the two sides of the struggle Paul has described (vv. 14–24). with the mind. See note on v. 23. I myself. Paul’s new redeemed self (see note on 6:6). the flesh. See notes on 6:6, 12; 7:5. law of sin. See note on v. 23." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1706). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

 

[glorydaz]

Yep.

And how are you? You are sorely missed, dear sister!

You're out of touch
I'm out of time (time)
But I'm out of my head
When you're not around
Oh, oh-oh, oh
Oh, oh-oh, oh

- Hall and Oats

Why thank you, kind sir.

I've enjoyed being back.

 

[glorydaz]

Paul wrote Romans 7 as a saved man. :dizzy:

Related:

Lordship

"Ro 7:24 wretched man. In frustration and grief, Paul laments his sin (cf. Pss. 38:14; 130:1–5). A believer perceives his own sinfulness in direct proportion to how clearly he sees the holiness of God and perfection of His law. deliver. This word means “to rescue from danger” and was used of a soldier pulling his wounded comrade from the battlefield. Paul longed to be rescued from his sinful flesh (cf. 8:23). body of death. The believer’s unredeemed humanness, which has its base of operation in the body (see notes on 6:6, 12; 7:5). Tradition says that an ancient tribe near Tarsus tied the corpse of a murder victim to its murderer, allowing its spreading decay to slowly infect and execute the murderer—perhaps that is the image Paul has in mind.

7:25 The first half of this verse answers the question Paul just raised (v. 24)—he is certain that Christ will eventually rescue him when He returns (cf. 8:18, 23; 1 Cor. 15:52, 53, 56, 57; 2 Cor. 5:4). The second half summarizes the two sides of the struggle Paul has described (vv. 14–24). with the mind. See note on v. 23. I myself. Paul’s new redeemed self (see note on 6:6). the flesh. See notes on 6:6, 12; 7:5. law of sin. See note on v. 23." MacArthur, J., Jr. (Ed.). (1997). The MacArthur Study Bible (electronic ed., p. 1706). Nashville, TN: Word Pub.

Do you have anything to say for yourself?

Paul longed to be rescued from his weak flesh. He was beaten and persecuted. It wasn't pleasant, but it wasn't sin.

 

[glorydaz]

Christians go through experiences of struggling with their own flesh.

Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Every Christian experiences this from time to time,until deliverance comes, upon submitting to the Lord from the heart.

LA

Note the word "captivity". Are you captive to your sinful flesh? I sure hope not.

 

[serpentdove]

Do you have anything to say for yourself?

Yes, I was wondering where your greasy grace 'what sin?'

reinforcements are (2 Pe 2:1).

Paul longed to be rescued from his weak flesh. He was beaten and persecuted. It wasn't pleasant, but it wasn't sin.

See:

Ro 7:18 McGee, MacArthur

 

[glorydaz]

Also, because there is no chapter breaks or punctuation in the Greek, it looks like Paul's actual thought here flows more like this...



Paul, the new man, is free. His flesh, in which he was imprisoned, was not.

Why is Paul asking "who shall deliver me"? Why is there no mention of the indwelling Holy Spirit in the whole of chapter 7?

 

[glorydaz]

Are all Christians carnal?

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.

Romans 8:6-7 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.

No, nor are they "sold under sin".