ECT The Man of Romans 7 is a Believer

[Jamie Gigliotti]

I believe that only a regenerated person can feel plagued and trapped by the flesh, as Paul is describing there, because only a believer knows it's no longer who or what he truly is, now that he's been made alive in Christ.

I believe that an unbeliever, someone without the life of Christ, cannot know that particular struggle. They have no reason to know it. True, they can dislike this or that aspect of themselves. They can have a guilty conscience over this or that act. They can know conviction. But they still love themselves more than God. They do not loathe sin AS sin the way the regenerate do because the unsaved have nothing within them to contrast it with.

That's what Paul describes in ch. 7. That internal utter hatred of the old man AS NOT WHO THEY REALLY ARE ANYMORE, that longing to be released from it (which will come with the new body) is unknown and unknowable to those without the life of Christ because there's no new man within them to hate it.

Only a believer can know this struggle...and even then, not every believer lives up to it even though they ARE believers. Just look at Corinth.

The Jews struggle to be good and everyone's as you said comes down to pride, self love... Its the same struggle for both... The Christians victory comes down to recognized need, contriteness. The need of Jesus. Not just the blood at conversion, but the continual need for Him personally experienced through the presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[God's Truth]

It is quite simple to show that the man/person of Romans 7 is a Christian.

Rom 7B shows quite a bit of inner conflict. The passage ends, however, on a return to the glory of justification: The person who is in Christ faces no condemnation because of the inner conflict, praise God.

The following items show that the passage is for the believer:
6:3 The audience is those baptized into Christ
6:4 The audience is those raised in Christ
6:23 Even though the audience will die because of sin, the gift of God is already in hand--eternal life in Christ.
7:4 The previous 'marriage' is dead because of a 'death.' We now belong to Another husband.
7:6 The audience serves in the new way of the Spirit which does not demean the law; rather it has to do with a love-compulsion to honor Christ
7:7 What shall "we" say? Paul is counting himself in the mix of people who have the Romans 7B struggle.
7:22 In his inner being he delights in God's law, but sin is right there waging war against him
7:25 We will have this wretched condition until the rescue of Christ. "So then...(the paradox)"
8:1 There is no condemnation (about this inner conflict!) for those who are in Christ, because that is what justification is about:
8:3 What we can't do (a perfect life) God did in his son!
8:10 Although 3-9 sound like everything is actually perfect, 10 comes along and reminds us like ch 7 that 'your body is dead because of sin.' The paradox is still there.


Sorry to all those whining about 'outside sources'. I'm sure you'll find 'outside sources' to complain about. Even here. Sorry.

You are not right on this. Romans 7 is about a man under the law and WITHOUT faith. Remember, Paul was a Pharisee. Jesus said the Pharisees did not obey and they did not have faith. Paul was an apostle born unnaturally.

You have got to be kidding if you think Christians live their life with conflicts of sin as stated in Romans 7.

You do NOTHING GOOD ONLY BAD...and you call yourself a Christian?

Get real.

 

[God's Truth]

18 For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.


So you say Paul could NOT carry out any good as a Christian!

19 For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Do you really believe that after Jesus saved Paul, that he did not do good but rather he did evil? Do you really believe that Paul is speaking of his life AFTER Jesus saved him? Do you really believe that Paul, having died to sin, still has sin living in him? That is nonsense!

 

[God's Truth]

The Jews struggle to be good and everyone's as you said comes down to pride, self love... Its the same struggle for both... The Christians victory comes down to recognized need, contriteness. The need of Jesus. Not just the blood at conversion, but the continual need for Him personally experienced through the presence of the Holy Spirit.

There are Jews who obeyed God.

Genesis 32:28 Then the man said, "Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with humans and have overcome."


There were righteous people who obeyed God before Jesus came, and after Jesus.

Luke 1:6 Both of them were righteous in the sight of God, observing all the Lord's commands and decrees blamelessly.

Genesis 6:8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD.

Genesis 7:1 The LORD then said to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family, because I have found you righteous in this generation.

Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him.

John 1:47 When Jesus saw Nathanael approaching, he said of him, "Here truly is an Israelite in whom there is no deceit."

Job 1:1, 8 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God...

1 Kings 9:4 And if you will walk before me, as David your father walked, in integrity of heart, and in uprightness...

1 Kings 15:5 For David had done what was right in the eyes of the LORD and had not failed to keep any of the LORD's commands all the days of his life--except in the case of Uriah the Hittite.

Genesis 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me faithfully and be blameless.

Genesis 26:4-5 I will make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and will give them all these lands, and through your offspring all nations on earth will be blessed, because Abraham obeyed me and kept my requirements, my commands, my decrees and my laws."

Luke 1:30 But the angel said to her, "Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God.

Acts 22:12 "A man named Ananias came to see me. He was a devout observer of the law and highly respected by all the Jews living there.


Hebrews 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.

Genesis 5:24 Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away.

Luke 2:37 and then was a widow until she was eighty-four. She never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying.


Acts 10:22 The men replied, "We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people.


Luke 8:15 “… these are the ones who have heard the word in an honest and good heart, and hold it fast, and bear fruit with perseverance.”

Matthew 12:35 A good man brings good things out of the good stored up in him, and an evil man brings evil things out of the evil stored up in him.

John 3:21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Romans 7 shows the workings of the Schoolmaster.
It's to make us wretched in our captivity and bondage so we turn to the Lord for salvation.

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

Romans 8 shows us how we are freed from the law of SIN AND DEATH once we are no longer under the Schoolmaster.

 

[Danoh]

Romans 7 shows the workings of the Schoolmaster.
It's to make us wretched in our captivity and bondage so we turn to the Lord for salvation.

Galatians 3:24
Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Galatians 3:25
But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.​

Romans 8 shows us how are freed from the law of SIN AND DEATH once we are no longer under the Schoolmaster.

Lol - I wasn't aware you were a Jew living before Christ died on the Cross.

 

[God's Truth]

Lol - I wasn't aware you were a Jew living before Christ died on the Cross.

A person did not have to be a Jew to know the Jews had the law and what it entailed.

 

[glorydaz]

Lol - I wasn't aware you were a Jew living before Christ died on the Cross.

No, I'm a Gentile and had the law of God written in my conscience.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

What Paul writes about the Law in chapters 6, 7, and 8 applies to all men. It's the way sin uses the law of God to become "exceedingly sinful".


Careful, Danoh, you don't want your pride to get the better of you. :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

No, I'm a Gentile and had the law of God written in my conscience.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

What Paul writes about the Law in chapters 6, 7, and 8 applies to all men. It's the way sin uses the law of God to be "exceedingly sinful".


Careful, Danoh, you don't want your pride to get the better of you. :chuckle:

Nope. It's the work of the law, not the law itself.

In other words, a conscience, or the awareness of a general sense of right and wrong, they they fought against.

In contrast to Israel, which had access to a very specific sense of right and wrong in all sorts of areas through their very specific law, Rom. 2.

 

[glorydaz]

Glory,
How does this verse fit your theology--

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

What theology? Paul's teaching you mean?

Believers are not in the flesh.

Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.​

 

[glorydaz]

Nope. It's the work of the law, not the law itself.

In other words, a conscience, or the awareness of a general sense of right and wrong, they they fought against.

In contrast to Israel, which had access to a very specific sense of right and wrong in all sorts of areas through their very specific law, Rom. 2.

No, Danoh. It's the right and wrong of it that Paul is talking about. You can tell that when he mentions "covet" which refers to what a man thinks in his heart. That is what convicts people of sin and their need of a Saviour. All men...not just the Jews.

Even Gentiles who try to do what they know is right but can't. Even Adam and Eve had the commandment not to eat the fruit of a certain tree. It's the commandment that sin uses to deceive us. That commandment (even if there was only one) that is the Schoolmaster.

It's true that Paul was convincing the JEWS that he hadn't been preaching the Law was bad, but his entire point of this chapter is to show how the law itself is used by sin...and the conviction that comes is to lead men to Christ. All men, not just the Jews.

 

[Danoh]

Glory,
How does this verse fit your theology--

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

What has Paul been talking about in Romans 7 and going into 8?

The issue of the futility of attempting to serve the Lord in one's own strength: the flesh.

To attempt to sets off sin in the flesh.

The result?

Spiritual death. Sin revives and one dies.

While if one lives after the Spirit; sin will not revive. The result being that one lives; is able serve God.

This is very similar in principle to when we are not in our right mind when we do something we later regret.

Later we think "what was I thinking; I sure was not in my right mind..."

During such instances, it's as if we died as to our right mind, and some other part of us revived.

 

[Lazy afternoon]

What has Paul been talking about in Romans 7 and going into 8?

The issue of the futility of attempting to serve the Lord in one's own strength: the flesh.

To attempt to sets off sin in the flesh.

The result?

Spiritual death. Sin revives and one dies.

While if one lives after the Spirit; sin will not revive. The result being that one lives; is able serve God.

This is very similar in principle to when we are not in our right mind when we do something we later regret.

Later we think "what was I thinking; I sure was not in my right mind..."

During such instances, it's as if we died as to our right mind, and some other part of us revived.

Glorydaz says no Christian is in the flesh, so then no believer can do anything by the flesh.

So you best take the contents of your post up with her.



LA

 

[God's Truth]

What has Paul been talking about in Romans 7 and going into 8?

The issue of the futility of attempting to serve the Lord in one's own strength: the flesh.

To attempt to sets off sin in the flesh.

The result?

Spiritual death. Sin revives and one dies.

While if one lives after the Spirit; sin will not revive. The result being that one lives; is able serve God.

This is very similar in principle to when we are not in our right mind when we do something we later regret.

Later we think "what was I thinking; I sure was not in my right mind..."

During such instances, it's as if we died as to our right mind, and some other part of us revived.

The law telling people not to do this and not to do that...taught them bad things to do that they might not otherwise have thought about to do.

You have to note though that there were people who obeyed all the commands blamelessly.

I believe Paul is speaking in a very exaggerated way what it is like for one to obey the old law without faith.

 

[glorydaz]

Glorydaz says no Christian is in the flesh, so then no believer can do anything by the flesh.

So you best take the contents of your post up with her.



LA

Paul says believers are dead to sin and not in the flesh. You'd best take your objections up with him.

I can only assume you don't understand what Paul means by "flesh". :idunno:

 

[glorydaz]

The law telling people not to do this and not to do that...taught them bad things to do that they might not otherwise have thought about to do.

It wasn't that the law taught them bad things. It's that sin uses the law to become even more sinful. It's the concept of the "forbidden fruit".

You have to note though that there were people who obeyed all the commands blamelessly.

No, they only thought they obeyed the commands blamelessly...they were comfortable and felt alive. Paul considered himself blameless under the law as a Pharisee, but when the "law came" (meaning that conviction of sin) he died. It's that aha moment when one realized their very thoughts make them guilty.

I believe Paul is speaking in a very exaggerated way what it is like for one to obey the old law without faith.

He's showing how the law interacts with sin, and how the law is a springboard for sin. His main point is that the law was never intended to make men holy. It was intended to show men their sin and lead them to Christ.

 

[Danoh]

Paul says believers are dead to sin and not in the flesh. You'd best take your objections up with him.

I can only assume you don't understand what Paul means by "flesh". :idunno:

True, but he is contrasting between that reality and what people end up doing: they attempt to serve in the flesh (in their own strength).

Thus his "know ye not?" questions to his reader.

Because Romans is a template written to the Body of Christ at Rome; the very epicenter of that ancient world.

Their faith was spoken of throughout that vast world of the then mighty Roman Empire; the headquaters of said mighty Empire like few in history, being Rome itself.

What a better group to write Romans to that he might have some fruit through them as they went about their living faithfulness witness throughout that vast empire.

So he writes Romans; a veritable bootcamp Bible conference within which all sorts of establishment issues are covered.

Towards establishing them in and understanding of core operating principles - how this over here works, how that over there works, and so on...

Romans is establishment truth meant to establish the saved in an understanding of many and various key issues the Body member is to be clear in...

Establishment in an understanding of the lost; how they got that way; how they see the world; what the solution is...

And in an understanding of what it means to be saved; who such are; how and where they are to look at things and operate from, within their new identity...what some main pitfalls are and how to solve for them...

And in an understanding of what's become of Israel...

And so on...

 

[Tambora]

True, but he is contrasting between that reality and what people end up doing: they attempt to serve in the flesh (in their own strength).

Thus his "know ye not?" questions to his reader.

Because Romans is a template written to the Body of Christ at Rome; the very epicenter of that ancient world.

Their faith was spoken of throughout that vast world of the then mighty Roman Empire; the headquaters of said mighty Empire like few in history, being Rome itself.

What a better group to write Romans to that he might have some fruit through them as they went about their living faithfulness witness throughout that vast empire.

So he writes Romans; a veritable bootcamp Bible conference within which all sorts of establishment issues are covered.

Towards establishing them in and understanding of core operating principles - how this over here works, how that over there works, and so on...

Romans is establishment truth meant to establish the saved in an understanding of many and various key issues the Body member is to be clear in...

Establishment in an understanding of the lost; how they got that way; how they see the world; what the solution is...

And in an understanding of what it means to be saved; who such are; how and where they are to look at things and operate from, within their new identity...what some main pitfalls are and how to solve for them...

And in an understanding of what's become of Israel...

And so on...

doctrine pitfalls & solutions
lifestyle pitfalls & solutions
dispensation pitfalls & solutions

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

No, I'm a Gentile and had the law of God written in my conscience.

Romans 2:14-15 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another​

What Paul writes about the Law in chapters 6, 7, and 8 applies to all men. It's the way sin uses the law of God to become "exceedingly sinful".


Careful, Danoh, you don't want your pride to get the better of you. :chuckle:

Too late for that.

 

[Danoh]

[/B]

Too late for that.

You could have better used your time to contribute to the subject of the thread.

You too, Tambora.