"OSAS" people are not answering this question.

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Yeah, and you were probably told to stay out of the cookie jar....you sinner you. :nono:

I wasn't allowed to eat another one until I turned 35. That was
overly cruel.

 

[oatmeal]

The first part of Revelation was written to the seven Churches of Asia Minor which existed in John's time (the 1st Century). Most if not all had been started by Paul. We know they were Christian because for one because they were Churches Also, Jesus does not correct and discipline the world, only true sons.

Revelation 1:1 tells us who, in general, this book was written to.

It is written about those things which will shortly come to pass, but have not come to pass yet. Therefore it is all future events.

Christians are saved now. They have received the gift of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 and therefore are expected to do the works that the gift of salvation enables them to do. Ephesians 2:10

Romans 6:23 Believers today have received the gift of eternal life.

Believers today are already justified and have peace with God. Romans 5:1

We are saved from the wrath to come (the events in the book of Revelation) Romans 5:9, I Thessalonians 1:10

We are already, ( from a spiritual and legal standpoint ) seated in the heavenlies in Christ. Ephesians 2:6

Etc, etc, etc....

 

[oatmeal]

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.




1Co 10:6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
1Co 10:7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
1Co 10:8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. 1Co 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.


One can receive the Spirit of eternal life without being made eternal as OSAS claims.

When we are clothed with immortality then yes we can not become lost.

Until then---

Heb 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

LA

As you pointed out, the records referred to in I Cor 10 were written for our admonition

Admonition and loss of eternal life are two different things.

Since Christians have eternal life, they shall live forever, but the continuity of that begins when the mortal puts on immortality and the corruptible put on incorruptibility. We have the promise from God that those events are ours in the future I Cor 15

 

[Lazy afternoon]

This coming from a poster who only trusts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke?
Meshak, you've said that the Apostle Paul is an anti-Christ. You also
don't believe in, about 95% of the Bible.

So what is your percentage?

Have you ever been filled with the Holy Spirit?

LA

 

[Lazy afternoon]

As you pointed out, the records referred to in I Cor 10 were written for our admonition

Admonition and loss of eternal life are two different things.

Since Christians have eternal life, they shall live forever, but the continuity of that begins when the mortal puts on immortality and the corruptible put on incorruptibility. We have the promise from God that those events are ours in the future I Cor 15

No.

You are deceived.

1Co 10:9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
1Co 10:10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

So you think the judgment is only temporary and will be reversed at the last judgment????

2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

LA

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

So what is your percentage?

Have you ever been filled with the Holy Spirit?

LA

Percentage?

 

[Danoh]

I wasn't allowed to eat another one until I turned 35. That was
overly cruel.

I had my own batch in my room, hah, ha! And Suzy Q's - God I used to love them Suzy Q's!!!

"Oh Suzy Q, Suzy Q, I love you-ooo."

 

[glorydaz]

Revelation 1:1 tells us who, in general, this book was written to.

It is written about those things which will shortly come to pass, but have not come to pass yet. Therefore it is all future events.

Christians are saved now. They have received the gift of salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 and therefore are expected to do the works that the gift of salvation enables them to do. Ephesians 2:10

Romans 6:23 Believers today have received the gift of eternal life.

Believers today are already justified and have peace with God. Romans 5:1

We are saved from the wrath to come (the events in the book of Revelation) Romans 5:9, I Thessalonians 1:10

We are already, ( from a spiritual and legal standpoint ) seated in the heavenlies in Christ. Ephesians 2:6

Etc, etc, etc....

Oats....you surprise me. :thumb:

 

[glorydaz]

Evidently, you have not read Matthew 15:24

Christians are not the lost sheep of the house of Israel, they may have formerly been one of the lost sheep, but when they did Romans 10:9-10, they were no longer lost, nor sheep, nor of Israel, they are now members in particular in the body of Christ. I Corinthians 12:27

Oats....you keep on surprising me. :e4e:

 

[God's Truth]

Thinking is not sufficient, you could think without ever reading or learning scripture.

Thinking is not the issue, the evidence of scripture is what is important

Once we have all scriptural evidence on a subject, then you have something to think about.

Christ spoke to all Christians, Jew and Gentile.

The Bible says Christ is not divided, but you say he is.

I believe the Bible and not you.

 

[God's Truth]

Evidently, you have not read Matthew 15:24

Christians are not the lost sheep of the house of Israel, they may have formerly been one of the lost sheep, but when they did Romans 10:9-10, they were no longer lost, nor sheep, nor of Israel, they are now members in particular in the body of Christ. I Corinthians 12:27

Jesus is the Savior of the world.

 

[God's Truth]

When Jesus walked the earth, he came for those who already belonged to God by faith; they were God's and God gave them to Jesus.


John 17:6 "I have revealed you to those whom you gave me out of the world. They were yours; you gave them to me and they have obeyed your word.


Jesus came first for those who belonged to God and waited for the Messiah. When Jesus was crucified, then all could come to him to be saved.


John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself."

 

[Lazy afternoon]

This coming from a poster who only trusts in Matthew, Mark, and Luke?
Meshak, you've said that the Apostle Paul is an anti-Christ. You also
don't believe in, about 95% of the Bible.

So what is your percentage?

Have you ever been filled with the Holy Spirit?

LA

Percentage?

Gros,

Have you ever been filled with the Holy Spirit?

Why can you not answer that question, instead of giving your neg reps.



LA

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Gros,

Have you ever been filled with the Holy Spirit?

Why can you not answer that question, instead of giving your neg reps.



LA

Do you really think it's any of your business? You like to make
predictions up about fellow posters. You've said a number of
times that I'll be "beheaded." You're another one of those
Knuckleheads who prides himself in making predictions that
don't come to fruition.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Evidently, you have not read Matthew 15:24

Christians are not the lost sheep of the house of Israel, they may have formerly been one of the lost sheep, but when they did Romans 10:9-10, they were no longer lost, nor sheep, nor of Israel, they are now members in particular in the body of Christ. I Corinthians 12:27

Good post

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

LA is one of the worst posters on TOL.
GT is also.

 

[God's Truth]

Do you really think it's any of your business? You like to make
predictions up about fellow posters. You've said a number of
times that I'll be "beheaded." You're another one of those
Knuckleheads who prides himself in making predictions that
don't come to fruition.

Lazy Afternoon, I think we know the answer.

 

[Shasta]

Shasta's "strength" to sin or not sin allegedly comes from God, yet he still sins occasionally. You don't see a problem with that?

All grace not to sin comes from God but our receiving that grace depends on the faith we put in Him. Our submission to Him and faith IN Him is ongoing. If our faith in Him fails we cannot say as you have implied here - that God has somehow failed us. This assumption - that God irresistibly causes us not to sin is a quasi-Calvinist assumption but scripture affirms that both sin is a choice. and that all human beings have a will that makes it possible for them to choose. You do not lose your will when you are saved. We will always be able to choose whether we will believe in and depend upon Him or whether we will doubt Him and yield to temptation.

In Romans 6:12-14 Paul instructed believers they they had to make certain choices.

"do not let sin reign" in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts

do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness

He was writing to believers of both Gentile and Jewish decent. He does not assume that the Holy Spirit will accomplish these things by a unilateral act of divine power They had a part to play there was a possibility that they would at some point choose not to "yield their members."

We have not been perfected yet. I showed you scriptures that state this. Even the Apostle Paul admitted he was not perfected. We will be perfect only on the day when our last tie to the First Adam (our physical body) either dies or is transformed. Until then we have to discipline our flesh and direct our minds.

All the Apostle's letters to the Churches contain rebukes for sins being committed, exhortations to them to avoid sins, and sometimes warnings about the consequences of falling into a pattern of sinning and turning from Christ. All those indicate that the believers then did not live a lives of practical sinless perfectionism.

One reason people who believe OSAS do not accept conditional security is that they listen to this kind of stuff and get the idea you have to be perfect every moment of time in order to remain in salvation. When you make sinless perfectionism the condition for salvation you leave people in a state of eternal INsecurity. To every ditch on one side of the road there is another ditch on the opposite side.

 

[Shasta]

I don't, so why are you making stuff up about me?



False. That is exactly what He does. See 1 John 3:9.

Still, that doesn't mean He is to blame for your choices when you sin occasionally. If you do sin occasionally, it means you did not believe the truth that would have directed your choices. The truth is supposed to set you free from sin, but if you sin at all you are a servant of sin according to Jesus and Paul (Romans 6:16).

1 John 3:9.

English Standard Version
No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God.

Berean Study Bible
Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God's seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God.

Berean Literal Bible
Anyone having been born of God does not practice sin, because His seed abides in him, and he is not able to continue sinning, because he has been born of God.

New American Standard Bible
No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

New International Version
No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

That John is speaking of an ongoing practice of sin not about occasional isolated sins is confirmed in these translations. They got the idea from the meaning of the Greek present tense verbs which I have been alluding to.

Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament
(emphasis mine)
http://www.studylight.org/commentary/1-john/3-9.html

Doeth no sin (αμαρτιαν ου ποιει — hamartian ou poiei). Linear present active indicative as in 1 John 3:4 like αμαρτανει — hamartanei in 1 John 3:8. The child of God does not have the habit of sin.

The linear present refers to an action that is ongoing, continuous or habitual.

His seed (σπερμα αυτου — sperma autou). God‘s seed, “the divine principle of life” (Vincent). Cf. John 1. And he cannot sin (και ου δυναται αμαρτανειν — kai ou dunatai hamartanein). This is a wrong translation, for this English naturally means “and he cannot commit sin” as if it were και ου δυναται αμαρτειν (i.e., "not possible to sin")...The present active infinitive αμαρτανειν (to sin) — hamartanein can only mean “and he cannot go on sinning,” as is true of αμαρτανει — hamartanei in 1 John 3:8 and αμαρτανων — hamartanōn in 1 John 3:6. For the aorist subjunctive to commit a sin see αμαρτητε — hamartēte and αμαρτηι — hamartēi in 1 John 2:1.

In 1 John 2:1 John does not use the present tense but the aorist (past) tense which refers to an act that is not ongoing

Robertson goes on to add this:

A great deal of false theology has grown out of a misunderstanding of the tense of αμαρτανειν (to sin) — hamartanein here. Paul has precisely John‘s idea in Romans 6:1 επιμενωμεν τηι αμαρτιαι — epimenōmen tēi hamartiāi (shall we continue in sin, present active linear subjunctive) in contrast with αμαρτησωμεν — hamartēsōmen in Romans 6:15 (shall we commit a sin, first aorist active subjunctive).

What I have been saying comes from the principles embedded in the the language of the scriptures not from any presuppositions of mine. You are imposing on the text ideas from English that are not there

 

[elohiym]

If a true Christian choose's of his or her own, absolutely free will, to murder, then that Christian has killed not only there victim, but also there own soul.

A murderer has no eternal life. See 1 John. The person who murders is never a believer in the gospel of Christ. The person who claims to be a believer in the gospel of Christ while committing murder is blaspheming the name of God. They don't kill their own soul because they are already dead in sin before they even commit the act.

The likelihood of such a thing occurring is slight, just statistically, if not mechanically/spiritually (sacramentum+mysterium=mystery).

I disagree. See 1 John 3:6, 1 John 3:15, 1 John 4:20, et al.

It is possible for the true Christian to murder and to yet remain spiritually alive, and it has to do with real and even imagined or hallucinated circumstance's in which we find ourselve's, moment-to-moment, breath to holy breath.

That's not true. It can't be. See 1 John 3:15.

And, if the true Christian was pressured or coerced, threatened or in any way afraid, confused, distressed, lonely, desperate, anxious, worried, impaired, concussed, or otherwise hindered, from making a truly absolutely free and autonomous choice to murder, then ....

Murder is a wilful act that has certain elements. If those elements are missing, it's not murder.

Nobody is saying that murder should be tolerated in any way ...

Actually, you and several others are basically arguing that God should tolerate murderers and give them eternal life while they continue to occasionally murder people.

...even when any of those free-will-debilitating circumstance's are present.

You can't simply redefine murder to suit your needs, as you are doing.

A murderer ought to be treated the same way on this earth, regardless of whether they are a true Christian, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the civil law. I want to make that clear.

You want murderers punished. I get that. See the parable of the unmerciful servant.