I was hoping you were engaging me in a conversation when you started our discourse.Originally posted by Zakath
Appropriate response.
Only to find out you fizzled out once again.
No Longer A Christian
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Only to find out you fizzled out once again.
The character of God did not change. And some people *coughpeoplelikeyoucough* just don't get that. They think that Jesus was all peaceful, and had no wrath, though He said, Himself, that He [Jesus]"...came not to bring peace, but a sword."[/Jesus]
"There is nothing more than Christ, in the life of one who is in Him."
What you don't realize is that what you believe about Christ is based on what the church decided he was. The Bible didn't just show up, Lighthouse. It was hammered out, edited, and cobbled together over a period of decades. People just didn't decide Jesus was the savior of mankind, either. It was put to a committee vote. If a half dozen votes had slid in another direction your faith and Christianity as a whole would be completely different.
There is more to being a Christian than just "accepting Jesus into your heart." Because the Jesus you believe in and the book you trust are products of a committee. Man-made. Plenty of people "believe in Christ." Heck, Wickwoman does; I'd venture that Zakath would agree that someone named Jesus probably lived. Believing in Christ is easy. Believing what the Christian church says about him is something else entirely.
What you don't realize is that what you believe about Christ is based on what the church decided he was. The Bible didn't just show up, Lighthouse. It was hammered out, edited, and cobbled together over a period of decades. People just didn't decide Jesus was the savior of mankind, either. It was put to a committee vote. If a half dozen votes had slid in another direction your faith and Christianity as a whole would be completely different.
There is more to being a Christian than just "accepting Jesus into your heart." Because the Jesus you believe in and the book you trust are products of a committee. Man-made. Plenty of people "believe in Christ." Heck, Wickwoman does; I'd venture that Zakath would agree that someone named Jesus probably lived. Believing in Christ is easy. Believing what the Christian church says about him is something else entirely.
Originally posted by Zakath
Ahh, but I suggest that you are the one with a problem, granite.
"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."
You live as a sighted individual in a land of blindness, self inflicted for the most part. That, in and of itself, is a problem, but I have confidence that you'll work it out.
I love that flick...do you happen to know if that's an original line to "Minority Report" or was it lifted from something else?
Hey, you are the one who started this thread. I am a TOL'er and I am telling you what I think. And it is a free country, so you can end this thread and go somewhere else, if you choose. No one is saying you have to continue here now that you are, "No longer a Christian". But, honestly what did you expect, when you insult the Spirit of grace, and the God who we "Still a Christians" believe really existed in time and space and hung practically naked on a cross for you and me, and said "Father forgive them for they know not what they do."
You have the right to say that that never happened, and I have the right to say you are wrong!
Zakath-
I never said that you siad he was all peaceful, but you did say that His character changed. And you are blind.
granite-
What you are completely failing to realize is that I rejected all of my preconceived ideas about my beliefs one day. I decided that I had to find the truth out for myself. So I sought. I looked at the world around me and realized that it was intelligently designed. And when I say designed, I mean meticulously designed. So I knew there had to be a Creator. And that there had to be an original Creator, even if the Earth had been created by alien beings. So I sought the Creator. I cried out to Him. And I asked Him Who He was. And He answered me. I found out that He is the God of the Bible. Both the OT and NT. I also found out that not everything I had believed was true. And I am still learning new things. He has shown me much. And I continue to seek Him. He also asssured me that Jesus was/is the Messiah. And that He is not dead, but alive. And that He is God. One with the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Yes, there is a Holy Spirit. I know God, intimately. I know Him and seek Him, and He tells me the truth. And you have no basis for your beliefs that Christ is not Messiah, or God. Nor do you have basis for your belief that the Bible is not scripture, or that there are other books that were scripture that were left out. All you have is a pack of lies.
I never said that you siad he was all peaceful, but you did say that His character changed. And you are blind.
granite-
What you are completely failing to realize is that I rejected all of my preconceived ideas about my beliefs one day. I decided that I had to find the truth out for myself. So I sought. I looked at the world around me and realized that it was intelligently designed. And when I say designed, I mean meticulously designed. So I knew there had to be a Creator. And that there had to be an original Creator, even if the Earth had been created by alien beings. So I sought the Creator. I cried out to Him. And I asked Him Who He was. And He answered me. I found out that He is the God of the Bible. Both the OT and NT. I also found out that not everything I had believed was true. And I am still learning new things. He has shown me much. And I continue to seek Him. He also asssured me that Jesus was/is the Messiah. And that He is not dead, but alive. And that He is God. One with the Father, and the Holy Spirit. Yes, there is a Holy Spirit. I know God, intimately. I know Him and seek Him, and He tells me the truth. And you have no basis for your beliefs that Christ is not Messiah, or God. Nor do you have basis for your belief that the Bible is not scripture, or that there are other books that were scripture that were left out. All you have is a pack of lies.
Oh, jeez. Blah, blah, blah. First you insult me by claiming I'm somehow trying to make myself a martyr, now you're backpedaling and telling me to shut up, essentially. Look, Jeremiah, you don't like this thread, you can take a walk. It's spun off into different tangents, like most threads.
I never said you didn't have the right to speak your mind but insisting I've called myself a special case is just BS. Maybe that's your knee-jerk reaction to anyone who leaves the faith, but it ain't so. Hope this clears things up.
Lighthouse, I'm sorry, but all you have is a subjective experience, a feel-good warm and fuzzy moment that just confirms what you already want to think. If you want to pin your life on that, fine; if it works for you, do it. But to call yourself a Christian with this kind of background leaves you totally ignorant of what makes up your faith and your Jesus. But that's your problem, not mine.
The thing is, I DO have a basis for my beliefs about the Bible and Jesus, and you're not interested in them. You seem to think I've made all this stuff up, or that I'm lying. Skepticism about scripture and Christianity has been around for a very long time, and there's a wealth of information out there. So to insinuate that I'm lying or am too stupid to know what I'm talking about is supremely arrogant and naive of you.
So, I don't know where that leaves us. You can decide to cling to your feel-good experience, and if it does the thing for you, fine. It's probably made you a better person than you were. But don't make the mistake of assuming what I believe doesn't have any basis. If you actually read for yourself and thought for yourself, you'd know differently.
Yes, I think that it does clear things up. You said that you consider yourself a better Christian now that you are not one. You said that means that you are more understanding, forgiving and tolerant of others. Apparently that does not now extend to Christians. Where is your understanding of me, or of lighthouse? {Especially, yes especially, from someone who JUST left the faith} Where are the kind words towards us? Where is your forgivness, if we have misunderstood you? Where is your tolerance of our beliefs? Is your condescending implication that Christianity belongs only to the unquestioning intellect, or those who only seek warm fuzzy feelings, is that your idea of tolerance?
I am very sorry to hear about the divorce you are going through. It sounds very ugly and obviously and definately very un-Christlike of your wife, the other man, and the elder.
I agree with the person who already said that they thought this might have a lot more to do with your current beliefs then you realize.
I will now be kind to you and drop out of your thread! This means that your assertions about Christ, and your self evaluation, will go largely unchallenged.
If you say things like, you have found God within yourself, or a more loving, and forgiving God, Wickwoman and PureX, will cheer you on. They will be consistent to their own beliefs. Zakath will not attack you since you don't believe in the God of the Bible. He will be inconsistent.
The worst thing that can happen to you, is if God were to leave you completely alone. I hope that will never happen to you.
I will leave you with one last challenge to your new beliefs. You said that the Bible is a "cut and paste concoction", apparently made by the powers that be at that time, to make you believe what they wanted you to believe. {Paraphrased}
Let's just look at the words of Jesus! Don't they really strike you as the words of God rather than the words that men could have made up?
Even a barbaric yet brilliant, man of war like Napolean said. "I KNOW men, and this Jesus was no mere man."
Goodbye, Granite!
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Mr. Coffee
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I don't see what the problem is here. The New Testament didn't emerge full-grown like Athena. AND?
At the earliest strata of text and tradition there is the belief that Jesus is the savior. I think you're referring to Nicea, which dealt with the relationship of the Son to the Father in response to Arius. There is nothing new in the canons of Nicea. The divinity of the Lord Jesus was taught by the apostles, and the Trinity is the presupposition of New Testament God-talk of the Son and the Spirit as personal and divine, and there's a ton of references to the Trinity in the ante-Nicene fathers.
Only if they were lying. Show me.
I thought about him but Turbo had already picked a vampire for an avatar.
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