No Longer A Christian

[Granite]

"IT'S NOT ABOUT THE CHURCH! IT'S ABOUT CHRIST!"

Lighthouse, for all your hysterics, I think you have an issue with semantics.

When I say "the church" I am referring to "the Christian faith." So, while your bold-face exclamations are a convenient way for you not to address what I posted, you're missing my point. Re-read what I said that made you flip out and hits Cap Lock, then try answer like a grown-up. 'Kay?

If it's not about the church, why have one? If all we have to do is worship Jesus, why do we have the church? I think you're wrong, Lighthouse. It IS about the church. "The church" determined what went into your Bible and what was left out. "The church" decided that God was a tri-une being. "The church" voted on Jesus' deity. The church--by committee and council--hammered out what you believe in a very long time ago. It did so by mixing local legends and mythology with the Jesus cult in Jerusalem, then blended them together and had Constantine rubberstamp the thing. "The church" is very, very much what it's all about.

When you "become a Christian" you are TOLD that all you have to do is "believe in Jesus." Nobody ever hears about the fine print: the trust in translators, bishops, cardinals, church fathers, copyists...there's a lot Christians are asked to buy into after they sign on the dotted line.

If more people knew what the fine print was all about, "just believing in Jesus" would suddenly get a lot more complicated.

"I will never leave my Savior. He is my Father, and my Friend. He loves me, and I love Him. I am His. I have a relationship with Him, so I will never deny His existence. And I know His love, and will never leave Him."

Again: this is exactly what I would have said a year ago. You never know, Lighthouse. That's the point I'm making.

Oh, and as for more wacky weekend...I had two wisdom teeth taken out yesterday, so I was a little loopy on Friday...

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Knight

Anything that is real.... is!

Where does logic come from?
:think:

Zakath... sorry I missed that response. I looked for one from you and must have lost that one in the shuffle. My bad.

No worries! I can sympathize, having done it myself often enough.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by elohiym

Weren't you a Pastor once, and shouldn't you know the answers to these questions?

Since this is a discussion, not a monologue, the issue isn't whether I know the answers to my own questions, but whether you have any answers worth considering.

If you can't understand me when I'm using worldly things like caterpillars and radio waves for examples, how will you understand me if I tell you about spiritual things?

My understanding is not at issue, what you are avoiding is the plain fact that I find the "evidence" you've provided so far is insufficiently convincing for me to change my position from disagreement to agreement.

If you disagree with anything I paraphrase, then please prove why my interpretation of the Hebrew or Greek is flawed.

Are you actually reading from a Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek text? Or are you merely citing from memory and paraphrasing? What are your qualifications to accurately translate Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek into English? :think:

Yeah, like I implied. Thanks.Nonsense, Zakath. You don't know what you are talking about.

Your problem is that I do know what I'm talking about, as well as what you're talking about.

I personally know someone that went diving at the Red Sea crossing site, and she claims there is an underwater land bridge just as Wyatt, Williams, and Cornuke have all claimed. She is a person I trust, with no motivation to perpetrate a con. I've seen photographs of people standing on this underwater landbridge at high tide in waste-high to chest-high water, and I've seen arial photographs of the area revealing the underwater landbridge, exposed in areas at low tide. The Exodus crossing site exists. Deal with it.

So what? The observable fact that a body of water has a shallow spot is not evidence that the Exodus story of almost two million individuals crossing in a single night is real.

That's a bit like claiming the existence of dust devils in the desert supports a belief in the existence of the Muslim jinn. :kookoo:

Besides the burnt moutain top of Jabal al Lawz, there is a large wing-shaped altar site with sections of marble columns scattered near it.

So you're suggesting what? That the Jews lugged marble building materials with them to Jabal al Lawz, all the way from Egypt, or that they stopped along the way to quarry marble from the desert?

There is an altar made with large stones incribed with Egyptian Bull God symbols that probably held the calf that was worshiped.

So what? Such altars are not uncommon in that area of the world. The entire area from the Nile to Palestine was under Egyptian control several times during history.

There is a split rock, with a small burnt patch near it, and the stones below that split rock show evidence of an enormous amount of water coming from the split rock, making the rocks below it smooth. There is even more evidence like that, which you cannot refute.That is what you call an interesting refutation? Are YOU that gullible, Zakath?

Did you read the archeological documents I suggested?

First, the author of the quoted material is Mr. Anonymous. The letter that includes what you quoted begins "Mr. Anonymous stated:" So you are offering me an "interesting refutation" by an author that feels the need to hide his name. Great start!

"Mr. Anonymous" is a screen name, similar to "Zakath". So what? Unlike you, Mr. Anonymous provides actual citations to existing published documents.

Essentially, direct oservations by both "secular" and religious geologists of the Jabal al Lawz region readily refute argument by Cornuke and Halbrook (2000) that the top of Jabal al Lawz has been either charred or recently melted.

Yeah, right, Mr. Anonymous. Atheists may be that gullible, but I'll need to see some statements from some "secular" and religious geologists. Funny how this letter from Mr. Anonymous doesn't contain ANY quotes from ANY geologists. :curious:

You would see if you'd actually bother to read the documents I provided citations for...

Unless of course, you're afraid to do so...

How about, YOUR ignorance and gullibility are your downfall?There are made-for-TV specials for many different things, like undersea exploration (Titanic), String Theory, the making of the Atom Bomb. Are you saying everything that is depicted in a made-for-TV special is a waste of time?

Not necessarily, but I've found that most pseudo-science with the word "biblical" prefixed to it to be generally short real science and long on speculation and wild, unsupported theorizing.

The evidence is there, from multiple sources. The Exodus happened. Deal with it.

Cite some contemporary historical sources to the event, say a half dozen, that describe some details of the alleged departure of two million or so slaves from Egypt and their arrival in Palestine forty years later...

Then I'll feel free to continue calling you what you are, a God-hater.

It's a free country, you can call me whatever you wish. It doesn't change the facts. I do not hate your deity because he doesn't exist.

From my perspective, you hate God. I acknowledge your perspective, but disagree with your interpretation of reality.

Again that's your privilege. In America, people can believe pretty much any weird, crazy thing they want so long as they don't injure their neighbors.

See ya around, Zakath.

You'll never know. I travel a bit and could be the fellow sitting next you in church next Sunday.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Atheists are just deophobes who don't want to admit they're afraid.

If you don't believe in the Easter Bunny does that make you a cuniculophobe?

Or does your disbelief in the existence of Muslim jinn make you a jinnophobe?:chuckle:

Somehow, I don't think so...

Atheists do not believe in the existence of deities. Period.

They do not hate what they do not believe exists. As such they do not adjust their lives to deal with alleged deistic demands, as voiced by their followers.

I'm sorry for you that you appear to have difficulty with this concept, but perhaps when you grow up you'll figure it out.

 

[Zakath]

Re: If I don't see it, It Isn't

Re: If I don't see it, It Isn't

Originally posted by Frank Ernest

How does one demonstrate or prove non-existence? Seems to me that the atheist position rests on simple denial, nothing more.

I cannot speak for others, but for me the process was roughly similar to the way one "comes to faith" in the non-existence of the Easter Bunny, Santa Claus, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn.

Insufficient compelling evidence.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Zakath

Where does logic come from?
:think:

It emanates from God Himself.

Logic is an attribute of God and therefore it exists because God exists.

Likewise....
Love wasn't created by God or something God decided to mimic. Love is a characteristic of God and therefore love exists!

God's attributes are projected upon creation.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Knight

It emanates from God Himself.

Logic is an attribute of God and therefore it exists because God exists.

That's quite a presuppostion. How do you support the truth of that assertion?

Is it possible for your deity create things that are not in his nature?

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Zakath

That's quite a presuppostion. How do you support the truth of that assertion?

Is it possible for your deity create things that are not in his nature?

He did create humans that have the propensity to sin. And that certainly isn't in His nature.

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Zakath

That's quite a presuppostion. How do you support the truth of that assertion?

Other than philosophically... I am not sure I can.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Knight

He did create humans that have the propensity to sin. And that certainly isn't in His nature.

... according to your carefully sanitized "Christian" presuppositions about him, perhaps.

A careful reading of your Bible, particularly in the OT, shows a bit of a more diverse character to the deity you follow.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Knight

Other than philosophically... I am not sure I can.

It might be interesting to see what you can come up with if you tried... :think:

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

"IT'S NOT ABOUT THE CHURCH! IT'S ABOUT CHRIST!"

Lighthouse, for all your hysterics, I think you have an issue with semantics.

When I say "the church" I am referring to "the Christian faith." So, while your bold-face exclamations are a convenient way for you not to address what I posted, you're missing my point. Re-read what I said that made you flip out and hits Cap Lock, then try answer like a grown-up. 'Kay?

If it's not about the church, why have one? If all we have to do is worship Jesus, why do we have the church? I think you're wrong, Lighthouse. It IS about the church. "The church" determined what went into your Bible and what was left out. "The church" decided that God was a tri-une being. "The church" voted on Jesus' deity. The church--by committee and council--hammered out what you believe in a very long time ago. It did so by mixing local legends and mythology with the Jesus cult in Jerusalem, then blended them together and had Constantine rubberstamp the thing. "The church" is very, very much what it's all about.

When you "become a Christian" you are TOLD that all you have to do is "believe in Jesus." Nobody ever hears about the fine print: the trust in translators, bishops, cardinals, church fathers, copyists...there's a lot Christians are asked to buy into after they sign on the dotted line.

If more people knew what the fine print was all about, "just believing in Jesus" would suddenly get a lot more complicated.

"I will never leave my Savior. He is my Father, and my Friend. He loves me, and I love Him. I am His. I have a relationship with Him, so I will never deny His existence. And I know His love, and will never leave Him."

Again: this is exactly what I would have said a year ago. You never know, Lighthouse. That's the point I'm making.

Oh, and as for more wacky weekend...I had two wisdom teeth taken out yesterday, so I was a little loopy on Friday...

You have a pathetic, secular, warped idea of what Christian faith is. No wonder you never had any faith.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by lighthouse

You have a pathetic, secular, warped idea of what Christian faith is. No wonder you never had any faith.

You have a pathetic, religionist, warped idea of what the world is like. No wonder you had to retreat and hide behind religion.

:darwinsm:

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by lighthouse

You have a pathetic, secular, warped idea of what Christian faith is. No wonder you never had any faith.

Lighthouse...if this kind of chicken, spineless, self-righteous, take-my-ball-go-home-and-cry retort is the best you can do, I am certainly not the one with a problem.

You have no clue what constitutes your faith. You don't have any grasp on Christianity's history or its background. You know you love Jesus and isn't that just hunky-dory. Well guess what: that isn't good enough. Because you're buying into a lot more than just "Jesus." If it was REALLY "just Jesus" I might not have such a problem with Christianity. Unfortunately there is way, way more than that.

If you can't even respond to a virtual stranger over the Internet, of all places, you're either a) skating on thin ice, b) have been so firmly indoctrinated you can't think for yourself, or c) you're willing to bank your entire life on something you don't really understand or care to learn about.

Too sad. You're way too young to stick your head in the sand. Think for yourself.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by granite1010

Lighthouse...if this kind of chicken, spineless, self-righteous, take-my-ball-go-home-and-cry retort is the best you can do, I am certainly not the one with a problem.

Ahh, but I suggest that you are the one with a problem, granite.

"In the land of the blind, the one-eyed man is king."

You live as a sighted individual in a land of blindness, self inflicted for the most part. That, in and of itself, is a problem, but I have confidence that you'll work it out.

 

[Lighthouse]

Originally posted by granite1010

Lighthouse...if this kind of chicken, spineless, self-righteous, take-my-ball-go-home-and-cry retort is the best you can do, I am certainly not the one with a problem.

I'm not going anywhere.

You have no clue what constitutes your faith.

My faith is in God, and God alone. Not in doctrine, dogma or the "church."

You don't have any grasp on Christianity's history or its background. You know you love Jesus and isn't that just hunky-dory. Well guess what: that isn't good enough.

Yes it is.

Because you're buying into a lot more than just "Jesus." If it was REALLY "just Jesus" I might not have such a problem with Christianity.

No I'm not. The problem is that you bought into more than Christ, and now you found out you were wrong, so you left it all because certain aspects of your beliefs were false.

Unfortunately there is way, way more than that.

There is nothing more than Christ, in the life of one who is in Him.

If you can't even respond to a virtual stranger over the Internet, of all places, you're either a) skating on thin ice, b) have been so firmly indoctrinated you can't think for yourself, or c) you're willing to bank your entire life on something you don't really understand or care to learn about.

I have learned a lot about it. And I do not believe the same things I did when I became a Christian. I don't even believe the same things I did a year ago. Or even a few months ago. I did respond to you. I told you that your idea of who Christ is and what true Christianity is are warped and twisted. You bougt into lies, and when you realized they were lies, you left...but you still think htose lies are the truth of Christianity.

Too sad. You're way too young to stick your head in the sand. Think for yourself. [/QUOTE]

 

[Nathon Detroit]

Originally posted by Zakath

... according to your carefully sanitized "Christian" presuppositions about him, perhaps.

A careful reading of your Bible, particularly in the OT, shows a bit of a more diverse character to the deity you follow.

:sigh:

 

[Lighthouse]

Knight-
Some people just don't get it, do they?:sigh:

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by Knight

:sigh:

Appropriate response.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by lighthouse

Knight-
Some people just don't get it, do they?:sigh:

Get "what", Mr. dim bulb?