NFL 2015

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Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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I think he's one of the best adjusters/defensive coaches in the game.

I do too, but will beat that horse until it bleeds. They need to do like the NCAA when cheaters are caught. Tell them to take the banners down and take the trophy out of the case.

I am not sure if Browns fans agree about his great adjustments.
 
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Town Heretic

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I do too, but will beat that horse until it bleeds. They need to do like the NCAA when cheaters are caught. Tell to take the banners down and take the trophy out of the case.

I am not sure if Browns fans agree about his great adjustments.
Well, you know I don't think he or the organization merits the luster they've gotten from the media, that there's an asterisk on it in my mind, even as I recognize the greatness of both coach and qb. But as for Cleveland, where almost no one has done anything since Brown, many a coach has stumbled in one place and shone in another. Some of it comes down to balancing control in player acquisition. Some of it can be ownership and some a matter of experience in the position...it's a little like playing qb when you think on it.
 

Nick M

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But as for Cleveland, where almost no one has done anything since Brown, many a coach has stumbled in one place and shone in another.

I was reading an Ohio State blog the other day and the draft came up along with comments of "shoot me now". They haven't forgiven him for cutting Kosar when in first place. Or Modell for that matter, but I can't really blame Modell for leaving.
 

Town Heretic

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It gets better. First Gore and now we sign Andre Johnson?

:D Those two are serious additions for the next two to three years. A new window for getting it done in Indy.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Since Gore is not going to the Eagles, now the talk is DeMarco Murray. And it is big money. To me, this makes no sense considering they just released the number 2 rusher after Murray. To me this is treading water. They didn't need to make the move at all.
 

Jedidiah

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And Bill was in fact cheating by taping practices. That is as bad as cheating can get. That is like looking at the deck before it gets dealt each hand then pretending it was a good read.

Bill's post Spygate record in the playoffs is mediocre. Even after going 3-0 this year. He went from incredible to not incredible all the while Brady started playing significantly better.

Shooting from the hip and not doing the math, his QB rating is about 87 the first 6 years. And about 105 each year on average since.

No it doesn't. Great players go to the Hall. Or at least usually. Great teams win championships. Are you going to tell me the Dolphins won a SuperBowl because Bob Griese completed 6 passes? And Trent Dilfer was elite. Can't forget him. He wasn't really cut after winning the Super Bowl. We imagined it.
It absolutely does, and no, one ring does not a elite QB make. Don't forget Marino and Kelly. Neither of these guys could close the deal, not even once, not even after four consecutive shots at it in Kelly's case. But they lit up the scoreboard and the stats columns their whole career, not unlike Peyton, who did manage to squeak out a single win against a good defense for his one ring (so far; I still hope he turns the mental corner, like Elway did in his final seasons, also in Denver, and tears it up and gets those rings we all feel he deserves). Meanwhile Brady got three opportunities in four years and won them all. With teams of varying "greatness."

And then won another one ten years later.
===========================
If you want to compare apples, you would need to compare the quarterback ratings for all the elites, Brady, Montana, that Steelers guy who took his pants off on screen...when their team, all of whom were varyingly "great," absolutely needed their quarterback to toss a perfect game, in one or more drives. And that doesn't result necessarily nor actually with fantastic SB game stats in most cases, but in those moments in a game when the current drive becomes a bit more important than any other drive in the game so far, a drive that could or will determine the game's outcome, during those drives, Bradshaw et al. reveal their greatness. You show me those quarterback stats, including Brady's whole career, and you tell me he's any more elite than he was in 01. He threw perfect games when his team, of varying "greatness," needed him to, and he did it repeatedly. In this SB he hurled a perfect 9-for-9 when his definitely not great team needed him to, and that's essentially what he did against the Rams in the closing seconds of the 4th quarter, much to John Madden's utter shock. I'm still not sure he ever fully recovered from witnessing such unexpected glory on the gridiron, and being shown to be such a blind nitwit, all at once. Belichick didn't cheat when he decided not to restore Bledsoe to the helm that season after his injury, and he didn't cheat in deciding to let Brady take a shot at the win rather than doing what Madden (and most of the football world) thought best, to take the knee and go into overtime, the conventional thinking being; you managed to tie the Rams in regulation. That's an accomplishment, take a breather and hope for a good coin toss and try to end it on a score on your first drive.

Maybe the Rams thought that's what was going to happen, and they weren't ready for Brady's rapid fire dink-and-dunks. Maybe. Who knows. But what was Brady's QB rating in that drive ? Maxed out.

What about his 9-for-9 drive against Seattle ? Maxed out. He won this one the same exact way he won the first one 13 years ago. He was elite from day one.
 

Town Heretic

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Since Gore is not going to the Eagles, now the talk is DeMarco Murray. And it is big money. To me, this makes no sense considering they just released the number 2 rusher after Murray. To me this is treading water. They didn't need to make the move at all.
And now he's an Eagle...explain to me how that isn't a step down. You take a back with the number of carries that historically leads to a real slip the next year and you pay him money that could have been used to keep a great all around back with fresher legs.

:plain:
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
LIFETIME MEMBER
Hall of Fame
Don't forget Marino and Kelly. Neither of these guys could close the deal, not even once, not even after four consecutive shots at it in Kelly's case.

That is my point. They are much better than a whole bunch of QBs with rings, multiple at that. Troy Aikman can't hold Dan Marino's jock. If the Steelers take Marino in 83 when available, they don't have that lull in the 80s and 90s, and go down in history like the Yankees with absolute dominance for 3 decades and damn good since with 2 more SuperBowl wins.

Great teams win. And yes, the QB is the most important player. And Brady is much better from season 7 forward than when he "won" 3 in 4 seasons.
 

Nick M

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And now he's an Eagle...explain to me how that isn't a step down. You take a back with the number of carries that historically leads to a real slip the next year and you pay him money that could have been used to keep a great all around back with fresher legs.

:plain:

I know he is good and I know he and Bradford go together with the spread. But I don't see it with trading away somebody on par with what they got. That is what I mean about treading water. They made 3 left turns to go right.
 

Town Heretic

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....Meanwhile Brady got three opportunities in four years and won them all. With teams of varying "greatness."
Rather, he got to and won three SBs by fgs. Not that he didn't contribute, but we'll get to the comparison with the actual elite standard in a minute.

...You show me those quarterback stats, including Brady's whole career, and you tell me he's any more elite than he was in 01.
Here you go. lets stack the games by one another, Brady and the yardstick, Montana:

Brady's first.

2001: 145 yds, 1 td, 0 int, 86.2 passer rating. So he played a Trent Dilfer like game there. A few plays, contributed to the team win.

Montana's first.

1981: 157 yds, 1 td, 0 int, 100.0 against the Bengals.
Winner: Montana

Brady's second.

2003: 354 yds, 3 td, 1 int, 100.5 against Carolina. Terrific game.

Montana's second.

1984: 331 yds, 3 td, 0 int, 127.2 against Miami.
Winner: Montana in a push decided by the int.

Brady's third.

2004: 236 yds, 2 td, 0 int, 110.2 against the Eagles and his best performance in a Super Bowl.

Montana's third.

1988: 357 yds, 2 tds, 0 int, 115.2 rating against the Bengals.
Winner: Montana in a close one, without factoring the eras.

Here Brady fails twice, with losses against the Giants:

2007: 266 yds, 1 td, 0 int, 82.5 against the best defense he'd seen in the Giants. He took a team being heralded as possibly the best in NFL history with an unequaled perfect record to that one and looked like a journeyman.

2011: 276 yds, 2 td, 1 int, 91.1 against the Giants again. Very good game, though not Montana like. Can't blame the loss on him this time around.

Brady's fourth:

2014: 328 yds, 4 td, 2 int, 101.1 against Seattle. Uneven, but overall a pretty great game for him.

Montana's fourth:

1989: 297 yds, 5 tds, 0 ints, 147.6 against the Broncos.
Winner: Montana

Now you could argue the last win against Denver wasn't comparable to the talent Brady faced with Seattle and I'd agree. But you also have to realize how much harder it was by rule to do what Joe did in any of those games and that overall the comparison in performance isn't that close.

Montana remains the gold standard and then some. Undefeated, no picks and an absurd 127.8 cumulative rating in those four victories, the weakest of which still topped a hundred.
 

Nick M

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From our end the deal is a good deal. Nick Foles is not elite, but Sam Bradford has glimpses of it. But it isn't known since he is always hurt. Foles has produced in his short career. So this is an upgrade for us knowing some quick signee isn't the starter.
 

Nick M

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Other than Trae Waynes, do you think any of the above DB's will go in the first round?

Ohio State's Doran Grant said at his pro-day (today) the Steelers are talking to him. Along with others, but that is of note to you.
 

Jedidiah

New member
Rather, he got to and won three SBs by fgs. Not that he didn't contribute, but we'll get to the comparison with the actual elite standard in a minute.


Here you go. lets stack the games by one another, Brady and the yardstick, Montana:


Winner: Montana


Winner: Montana in a push decided by the int.


Winner: Montana in a close one, without factoring the eras.




Winner: Montana

Now you could argue the last win against Denver wasn't comparable to the talent Brady faced with Seattle and I'd agree. But you also have to realize how much harder it was by rule to do what Joe did in any of those games and that overall the comparison in performance isn't that close.

Montana remains the gold standard and then some. Undefeated, no picks and an absurd 127.8 cumulative rating in those four victories, the weakest of which still topped a hundred.
Nick said that Brady wasn't elite until after 08. I say yes he was. Now you act like I said Brady's better than Montana. He's not better. They're both outstanding. You give Brady Montana's situation, or Montana Brady's, and you'd get similar results. They are both elite quarterbacks, although if anybody took a while to warm up to the NFL it was Montana and not Brady. Brady was so good out of the starting gate he literally distracted himself with his success.

And I wasn't talking about overall game stats but stats in key drives. Like the 4th quarter winning drive against Cinci in SB 23 when Montana went 8-for-9 with the TD, pretty much maxed out rating for that drive, and that's exactly when his team needed him to pitch a perfect game, and he did. It would have been only three rings if not for that drive. And as you pointed out, each of Brady's SB's were tight, and that means more of these must-have drives.

You can argue that Montana was so good that he had many of those key drives and killed them all, and I'd listen. It's a fair point. There is something to be said for clutch though, and I think Montana and Brady are in the same company on that mark.

I'm not going to take anything away from Montana, but Brady's career -- we don't know how much longer, and if he'll do anything more. If he does, which means he'll have QB-ed his way to at least seven SB's, then I still won't talk about who's better him or Montana. They're cut from the same cloth. Whatever future ring(s) Brady wins, I assume Montana would have done the same given the same situation.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Nick said that Brady wasn't elite until after 08.

Actually, I said his first 6 years. And show me otherwise. Go ahead, I will wait patiently. :up:


Now you act like I said Brady's better than Montana.

What does this even mean? "You act like"? No, he said something very specific in response you saying something very specific. So he did.

You said:
If you want to compare apples, you would need to compare the quarterback ratings for all the elites,

You give Brady Montana's situation, or Montana Brady's, and you'd get similar results.

How do you know this? John Elway had more talent than both, so did Brett Favre. But you can't say they would have done the exact same thing. If you look at Montana's body of work in the SuperBowl, it is better than Brady's. And everybody else for that matters, save for a one game performance from Phil Simms.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Anyway, I love the internet.

Andrew%20Luck.jpg
 

Town Heretic

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Nick said that Brady wasn't elite until after 08. I say yes he was.
I'd say he was inconsistent until 07. From that point on his rating and performance are elite in every year, excepting the injured 08 year.

For his first three years as a starter he had really good, but not great numbers, an essentially 86 rating for 01, 02 and 03. The next two years were marginally, cusp straddling great, around 92. 2006 was back to very good.

Now you act like I said Brady's better than Montana. He's not better. They're both outstanding.
Brady is a great qb, but "they're both outstanding" sounds like at worst a tie and there's no objective standard for suggesting it, which is why I broke down their SBs a bit.

You give Brady Montana's situation, or Montana Brady's, and you'd get similar results.
See what I mean? Nonsense. Brady played with rules tailored to help qbs and the passing game and still didn't match up well with Montana.

They are both elite quarterbacks,
Without question.

although if anybody took a while to warm up to the NFL it was Montana and not Brady. Brady was so good out of the starting gate he literally distracted himself with his success.
Actually Brady's early ratings were lower, though not by much. Brady edges Joe in career season rating by 3.6, though he has had the advantage of not being traded to an inferior team for his last couple and he's been healthier than Joe. Put that with the aforementioned rules differences and a similarly qualified qb should be well ahead of Joe, but he isn't. And in the post season, where the competition and stakes are much more difficult, it's Joe without question.

And I wasn't talking about overall game stats but stats in key drives. Like the 4th quarter winning drive against Cinci in SB 23 when Montana went 8-for-9 with the TD, pretty much maxed out rating for that drive, and that's exactly when his team needed him to pitch a perfect game, and he did. It would have been only three rings if not for that drive.
Right. If he hadn't played extraordinarily well when it mattered most he wouldn't be the greatest. :plain:

And as you pointed out, each of Brady's SB's were tight, and that means more of these must-have drives.
What I pointed out was that Brady got to and won his first three by fgs. Joe didn't give games over to or get to many by that route.

You can argue that Montana was so good that he had many of those key drives and killed them all, and I'd listen. It's a fair point. There is something to be said for clutch though, and I think Montana and Brady are in the same company on that mark.
Brady is one of the best I've seen. Noting he falls short of the gold standard isn't really a knock. I think he's the second best of his generation and that his generation has more of the best than any I've seen or know of and I've followed the NFL passionately for decades.

I'm not going to take anything away from Montana, but Brady's career -- we don't know how much longer, and if he'll do anything more. If he does, which means he'll have QB-ed his way to at least seven SB's, then I still won't talk about who's better him or Montana. They're cut from the same cloth. Whatever future ring(s) Brady wins, I assume Montana would have done the same given the same situation.
I prefer Peyton, but Brady is a terrific, if not Montana equaling, qb and arguably the best combination of coach/qb of all time.
 

Nick M

Black Rifles Matter
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Montana had to get through the Redskins of Joe Gibbs, the Bears of Mike Ditka and Mike Singletary, and lets not forget the best linebacker of all time Lawrence Taylor and the New York Giants. That was just getting to the SuperBowl.

And it wasn't a one time thing. He had to do it for a decade.
 

Town Heretic

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Montana had to get through the Redskins of Joe Gibbs, the Bears of Mike Ditka and Mike Singletary, and lets not forget the best linebacker of all time Lawrence Taylor and the New York Giants. That was just getting to the SuperBowl.

And it wasn't a one time thing. He had to do it for a decade.
And LT shortened his career. The hits qbs took in those days. Playing to Brady's or Peyton's age wasn't rare because of a lack of interest.
 
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