Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
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Jason0047
Member
In Luke 16:19-31: when the Rich-man went to Torments (Hell or Hades), he was not actually being burned by any flames. In Luke 16:24, the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me). (Similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6 KJV). It was the heat of the flame that made him uncomfortable or tormented. For although I am open to understanding otherwise according to Scripture, I currently do not believe he was in extreme physical pain or torture. For if the Rich-man was engulfed by entire flames --- he wouldn't be asking for a little water to cool his tongue, he would be asking for a giant barrel of water or lots of buckets of water to lower the flame or to put it out.
In fact, the key is to always look at cross references so as to best understand Scripture. The cross reference for Luke 16:19-31 is Genesis 18:22-33 and Genesis 19:27-28.
Here are the chapters in the King James:
KJV:
http://biblehub.com/kjv/luke/16.htm
http://biblehub.com/kjv/genesis/18.htm
http://biblehub.com/kjv/genesis/19.htm
And here are the chapters in the New Language Translation (NLT):
NLT:
http://biblehub.com/nlt/luke/16.htm
http://biblehub.com/nlt/genesis/18.htm
http://biblehub.com/nlt/genesis/19.htm
Anyways, if you were to read these chapters, you would discover in Genesis 19 that Abraham looked at the billowing smoke from Sodom. When looking at all of Scripture, one can easily conclude that Abraham simply wanted to know what happened to this city because he was worried that Lot might have perished there. For Abraham might have learned later about how Lot made it to safety, but we get no indication within the text that Abraham knew that Lot was okay or safe. So I imagine it tormented Abraham a little in seeing that smoke. For he pleaded with God to spare the city (no doubt for Lot's sake). In fact, I imagine he pictured a fire in his mind where the smoke was coming from the city. But now in the New Testament, Abraham had knowledge as to why he and a righteous man named Lazarus was in Paradise (a Heaven like compartment in the realm of the dead) and he had knowledge as to why the Rich-man was in Hades or Torments. Abraham now looked at an actual real flame and had the understanding. Whereas the Rich-man looked at the flame on the other side and was tormented by it's heat and by the fact that it reminded him of the upcoming Lake of Fire. Both men (Abraham and the Rich-man were tormented by a fire) but each of them had two entirely different experiences concerning that fire which was in front of them.
In addition, another parallel I recently noticed between Lazarus and the Rich Man account (Luke 16:19-31) and Genesis 18 is that both Abraham's story in Genesis 18-19 and the Rich Man's story begin with their eyes being lifted up.
Abraham:
"And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day; And he lift up his eyes and looked, ..." (Genesis 18:1-2)
Rich Man:
"...the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, ..." (Luke 16:22-23)
In other words, this above example is trying to tell us that the two stories are tied together in order to give us an important message. What is that message? Well, I believe both stories are trying to tell us that God is fair and just in His Judgments. For "Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?" (Genesis 18:25) (cf. Luke 16:25).First, I do believe Jesus rose from the dead. I believe Jesus still has a physical body right now as it says in Revelation. Second, Jesus resurrection whereby He gives a person eternal life in Him actually proves Conditionalism and refutes ECT. For life only can exist in the Son. For God alone has immortality (1 Timothy 6:16); And He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Meaning, the wicked do not have the Son, therefore they will not have life (i.e. eternal life) when they perish in the Lake of Fire after the Judgment.
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God's Truth
New member
I do not believe our spirits die after the death of our physical bodies. I believe the resurrected bodies the righteous and the wicked will be immortal.
If the their worm does not die, then how is it they die?
If the fire is eternal, and the smoke from their torment is eternal, then how is it they die?
Since death and Hades will be thrown in the lake of fire, then how do they die?
Even if they do die, because the fire cannot be extinguished, why does it bother you so much? You will not have any memory of them anyways.
If the their worm does not die, then how is it they die?
If the fire is eternal, and the smoke from their torment is eternal, then how is it they die?
Since death and Hades will be thrown in the lake of fire, then how do they die?
Even if they do die, because the fire cannot be extinguished, why does it bother you so much? You will not have any memory of them anyways.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Seriously?!? It's because of foolish talk like this that your arguments fall apart. He begged Abraham to send Lazarus to dip his finger in water so that he might have just a drop of water, in which he might find relief from the pain of the flames. You simply aren't taking The Lord's Word seriously enough. Because of that, your words become meaningless.
He knew a bucket would be too much to ask, knowing he deserved his fate. Just like everyone else in God's Presence: he knew his guilt. Obviously you've never been in The Lord's Presence.
Jason0047
Member
Obviously you have not thought about how this scenario would work in real life. For how would you react if you were thrown into a furnace of fire in real life? You would be feeling pain like you have never known. You would be in such pain that you would not be able to think rationally to even carry on a normal conversation with someone. You would be screaming in pain so much that you couldn't talk to someone if your whole body was tortured in flames. Such intense pain would cause you to scream constantly. The only thing you could shout in desperation would be "water" amongst your screams. But was the rich man screaming? No. He was acting all cool and calm and was talking like he was not being tortured.
I have been in the Lord's presence and love. However, Christians cannot associate being in the Lord's presence with having a 100% correct understanding on everything in the Bible, though. Christians are to study to show themselves approved unto God (2 Timothy 2:15 KJV).
Besdies, how do you equate the unending torture of people with the Lord's presence? Can you explain how that concept lines up with a God of love and a God of justice?
Aimiel
Well-known member
Yes, I have, because it is 'real' and not imaginary. Jesus was describing a 'real' event. It wasn't a parable, but a true story to warn us that hell is real.
God's justice is perfect. There is no one who can judge His decisions. He is Supreme. Thinking one is more moral than God or trying to apply man's logic to put God in a box is a fool's errand.
Jason0047
Member
I agree. Jesus was decribing a real event in the afterlife and not a parable. However, you are ignoring Scripture and real life in order to hold onto a doctrine that does not exist within the Scriptures, though. How so?
Well, again, as for Scripture: In Luke 16:24, when the rich man said,
"I am tormented in this flame." the Rich-man was referring to the fact about how he was tormented in the flame that was in front of him that was in the gulf that was between him and Abraham (Sort of like if I said I am happy in this car --- yet the car is in front of me).
In fact, expressing emotion in something that is outside a person's body has been used before in the Bible (with a derivative of the word "this"). For similar language like this can be found with the words "in these" in Isaiah 57:6 KJV. For it is equally true if I say, "I am tormented in these shoes that I am wearing," just as it would be equally true if I said, "I am tormented in these two kids who are screaming." One is on my person, and the other is not.
As for real life: Well, you have not really explained to me how a person can carry on a cool and calm conversation with other people while being tortured in an actual flame? Do you know of anyone who has done this in real life? How do most people react when they are engulfed in flame in the real world today? Do they talk normally or do they scream or run around in agony?
Again, we have already been over this. You believe God's morality or justice is not knowable for us believers. However, the Scriptures say that believers can know his righteous Judgments (Psalm 119:7 KJV).
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Aimiel
Well-known member
No, I'm simply taking God at His Word... He's good like that, since He doesn't lie.
The certain rich man. I'm sure The Lord relieved his torments in order for him to be able to speak. :duh:
So, would you please give me the names of people whom God has judged and who will be destroyed? I'd like to see you do that, since you know His Judgments. :duh:
Jason0047
Member
No dear sir you are reading the Scriptures in your own slanted view while ignoring the real world around you.
I agree God doesn't lie, but your interpretation of Scripture does not line up with reality by any sense of the word, my friend.
Is that what the passage says?
Does Luke chapter 16 say, "And God relieved His torment in order for him to speak"? I don't think so.
I do know God's judgments. I know that God will not judge wrongfully by the fact He will not torture the wicked forever and ever because I know my God is a good God and a loving God (And because Scripture does not say anything about it). For I know that He is fair, loving, and good from personal experience and study of His Word. As for other believers who feel the same way: Just ask any Conditionalist, and they will say the same thing.
so you think we are suggesting God is lying
if
we don't agree with your interpretation?
do you realize that is what you are saying?
how can you ask such a question?
who can know whom God has judged?
there are many here who say they are saved
so
apparently they are able to judge themselves
Aimiel
Well-known member
You're entitled to your opinion, which is all that is; but the vast majority of Christendom (not just those on earth) would disagree with you completely, as do I.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Do you realize you're putting words in my mouth? :duh:
Aimiel
Well-known member
You need to get saved. Those of us who have God's Spirit in us know that we know that we know we are saved. If you don't know you're saved, you aren't and you need to get a personal relationship with The Lord. You don't want Him to say, "Depart from Me, I never knew you." If you want, I can give you my phone number by private message and we can talk and pray about just that.
Jason0047
Member
I believe there are problems in the vast majority of Christiandom. Many of them believe in OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), a prosperity gospel, or a works gospel. Many of them believe in a God who directly creates evil and or forces people to be saved or unsaved. Most people read the Scriptures and have no real understanding of them. Christian book stores accept Catholicism and books that are more in line with New Age teachings, etc. For...
"There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11).
"Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it." (Matthew 7:14).
"Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able." (Luke 13:23-24).
In fact, in Revelation chapter 2-3: When Jesus was giving out a report card for all the various different churches, he had a problem with the majority of them. It was only a few who were doing good. In other words, those who few churches who are truly doing good will of course have right knowledge of the Scriptures.