Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

it is

now what does that have to do with your post?

Res posted to Rusha, "I can't wait to see you burn".

So I pointed out to him that that is only something a sadist would say.

Torturing someone by setting them on fire and making them burn alive forever would indeed be sadistic, and enjoying watching someone else burn alive forever is something only a sadist could do.

I do not believe the lost suffer before they perish. The Bible says that the wages of sin is death, not eternal conscious torment. God loves the world and whoever believes in the Son of God will not perish but will have eternal life, just as the Bible says.

Sadists believe something else, I think it is because they want to believe in everlasting torture.

it was part of timmy's

No, I believe the wages of sin is death and not eternal conscious torment because the Bible says that the wages of sin is death.

ECT is sadistic, but that is not the reason I don't believe in eternal conscious torment in hell.
Do you have a learning difficulty?

 

[Timotheos]

Let me just tell you where I am coming from.

I am a member of the churches of Christ, which was one of the first denominations to not only accept but perpetuate the idea of annihilation. Trust me when I say that this idea has a lot of appeal to me and that I have heard very intelligent and reliable arguments supporting this theory.

However in posting a single passage without telling you where I was coming from, while you say you believe all scriptures point to your theory, you immediately assumed that I was opposing your argument based on a single verse posted without explanation. So you do have some understanding that this particular verse doesn't initially agree with your own theory otherwise you would have been more embracing than abrasive.

That being said I want to ask you if you believe that believers are rewarded with eternal life or if it is, like you say hell is, temporary?

When did I ever say that hell is temporary?

I believe that the lost will perish, and this will be permanent.
Eternal life is forever. Life that ends is not eternal life, unbelievers do not have eternal life. Their lives will end, and they will NOT live forever.
There is only eternal life in Christ.

By the way I don't think that verse, or any verse supports the idea that the lost go to hell when they die where they are tormented alive forever. But I am used to ECTists making poor arguments. If you are not an ECTist, then kindly disregard my last response. You appeared to be an ECTist when you posted a verse with no explanation, because that is what people who are trapped in that belief do.

 

[rstrats]

Timotheos,

re: " I think it is because they want to believe in everlasting torture."

That must be the case because there is no scripture that has to be interpreted that way.

 

[GuySmiley]

why is it more comforting to imagine a God who pulls the wings off flies before smooshing them into oblivion?

if annihilation is the final destination of the damned, isn't it sadistic to make them suffer first?

Well, pulling the wings off the fly before smashing it is less torture than causing it that pain somehow for eternity.

However . . . I don't care much. God is infinitely good, and I'm not an annihilationist because I think an infinite punishment is wrong.

I simply believe that is what the Bible is telling us. It's plain and overwhelming that those who die unsaved will perish, be burned up like chaff, consumed, and face the second death.

ECT has one verse that you have to stretch and take extra steps to 'interpret' to make it say what you'd want to believe ECT.

 

[chrysostom]

Well, pulling the wings off the fly before smashing it is less torture than causing it that pain somehow for eternity.

However . . . I don't care much. God is infinitely good, and I'm not an annihilationist because I think an infinite punishment is wrong.

I simply believe that is what the Bible is telling us. It's plain and overwhelming that those who die unsaved will perish, be burned up like chaff, consumed, and face the second death.

ECT has one verse that you have to stretch and take extra steps to 'interpret' to make it say what you'd want to believe ECT.

good post guy

 

[Aimiel]

ECT is clearly what Scripture describes in several ways but those who oppose it will see it one day.

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Jason0047]

So you believe not believing that Hell is Eternal Concious Torment is a salvation issue? Where in the Bible does it say that? Do you believe that folks who do not believe in the Nephilm are going to Hell? What about if they don't believe the King James is inspired but only the originals? What if they believe the Earth was 10 thousand years old instead of 6 thousand? What if they denied if there was no Pre-incarnate appearances of Christ? What then?

 

[Aimiel]

No, I just believe that everyone will see Truth one day... in God's presence.

 

[God's Truth]

The verse refers to the punishment of living men who worship the beast detailed in the vials of wrath.

The verse does not refer to anything following the last judgment of Rev.ch 20.

LA

Could you explain more what you mean?

 

[rstrats]

Aimiel,

re: "ECT is clearly what Scripture describes in several ways..."


You have yet to show any scripture that says that the fate of anyone - except for the devil and possibly the beast and false prophet, depending on the version/ translation - is to be tortured for eternity.

BTW, you have a question directed to you in post #3595.

 

[Aimiel]

Rstrats,

I don't have any obligation to show you more than The Holy Scriptures do. I'm not your conscience. The Holy Spirit Alone can convict you of Truth. I can only testify that His Word is Truth. You have to decide what His Word means for yourself.

 

[resurrected]

i'm fascinated by the compulsion many people have with this subject

while the scriptures regarding ect seem clear to me, it's not something i would agonize over


....in a manner of speaking...

 

[Aimiel]

i'm fascinated by the compulsion many people have with this subject

while the scriptures regarding ect seem clear to me, it's not something i would agonize over


....in a manner of speaking...

Hardee har har...

 

[Jason0047]

Anyone can easily misinterpret what the Bible says or take a verse out of context and or see things in the Scriptures that are not there. For what the ECT proponent can't do is explain how God is loving, just, and good in His decision to torture the wicked for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. In other words, I believe the ECT proponent cannot address the moral, good, and righteous aspect of God in regards to their position. All they got are a couple of Bible verses used out of context from where I am standing. They need to prove God is good in regards to ECT using a parable or real world example. Why do they need to do this? Well, because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples (i.e. parables).

 

[Timotheos]

ECT is clearly what Scripture describes in several ways but those who oppose it will see it one day.

Posted from the TOL App!

Scripture describes the lost as being destroyed, perishing, dying, and completely consumed by fire. But I agree with you that those who oppose this will see it one day. ECT is never described in Scripture. I just agree with what the Bible says, the lost will perish. That's the opposite of the lost living forever being tormented.

 

[resurrected]

great! :thumb:

then you're done with this dopey thread, right?

 

[Jason0047]

Is discussing the truth of God's Word dopey to you?
Because that is what we are doing here.

 

[resurrected]

going round in the same circles chasing yer tails for 3600 posts?


:darwinsm:


ok, ok


knock yerselves out


i'll stop by once in a while to mock you :chuckle:

 

[Timotheos]

great! :thumb:

then you're done with this dopey thread, right?

You can be done with this "dopey" thread whenever you want.
Just don't look at it if it bothers you.


I'm not touching you
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:loser:

 

[Aimiel]

Anyone can easily misinterpret what the Bible says or take a verse out of context and or see things in the Scriptures that are not there. For what the ECT proponent can't do is explain how God is loving, just, and good in His decision to torture the wicked for all eternity for a finite amount of crimes. In other words, I believe the ECT proponent cannot address the moral, good, and righteous aspect of God in regards to their position. All they got are a couple of Bible verses used out of context from where I am standing. They need to prove God is good in regards to ECT using a parable or real world example. Why do they need to do this? Well, because Jesus illustrated spiritual truth with real world examples (i.e. parables).

There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day: and there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, and desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; and in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: for I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment. Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them. And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Obviously, Jesus did rise from the dead and you STILL aren't persuaded.