Aimiel
Well-known member
I bet you do.
None of which are sound doctrine.
All of us understand everything differently.
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Aimiel,
re: "Many places."
Although you didn't address your post to anyone, I'm going to guess it is intended for me. If so, what place/verse says that the rich man will be given eternal life? And what place/verse says that the rich man will be tormented 24/7 for eternity?
re: "Many places."
Although you didn't address your post to anyone, I'm going to guess it is intended for me. If so, what place/verse says that the rich man will be given eternal life? And what place/verse says that the rich man will be tormented 24/7 for eternity?
Jason0047
Member
I believe this based on Scripture.
I am glad we can agree on something.
We are all taught by one Spirit, so the teaching should be the same. The problem arises when man's thoughts get in the way of that teaching, though.
Aimiel
Well-known member
No, the problem arises in those who don't discern what spirit is speaking to them.
Jason0047
Member
I never denied that a Christian should be able to listen to the Spirit. But it is another matter all together when a Christian believes teachings that come from men, too.
In other words, not every Christian has perfect knowledge of the Scriptures and they can even fall into error sometimes, too. This is how correction with the Word of God is possible when a believer does err from the truth of His Word (2 Timothy 3:16).
so why are you here?
Elwirfo
New member
I come from a Christian family, and Christianity surrounds me, I am trying to honor them by learning as much as I can. These discussions are interesting to me. Reading the bible myself has not been very convincing. I have been lurking here quite a while and I think people here are sincere believers.
I suspect Christians would like people to join the religion. Maybe this is opening a can of worms, but what kind of Christians did Jesus and his followers want? Belief out of fear or out of awe and respect?
I suppose you are trying to decide which way the scripture leads you.
It seems like a no win situation to me. ECT makes god seem immoral to the average thinker. Without it reduces (not eliminates) the Christian god's relevance to a non-believer.
An afterlife is the critical issue since there seems to be no verifiable evidence that god is active in the day-to-day activities of man. The details of the most important part of the sales pitch should not be in contention... Just sayin'
I suspect Christians would like people to join the religion. Maybe this is opening a can of worms, but what kind of Christians did Jesus and his followers want? Belief out of fear or out of awe and respect?
I suppose you are trying to decide which way the scripture leads you.
It seems like a no win situation to me. ECT makes god seem immoral to the average thinker. Without it reduces (not eliminates) the Christian god's relevance to a non-believer.
An afterlife is the critical issue since there seems to be no verifiable evidence that god is active in the day-to-day activities of man. The details of the most important part of the sales pitch should not be in contention... Just sayin'
what kind of God would you like?
God's Truth
New member
Salvation in near those who fear God.
Jason0047
Member
Conditionalism is not Annihilationism. Annihilationism is where the wicked immediately perishes at death. The Conditional View is that the wicked will suffer in the Lake of Fire in proportion to the type of sins they committed here in this life. Some Conditionalists believe that when a person dies, they soul sleep until the Judgment and then they are thrown into the Lake of Fire to be punished. Other Conditionalists believe that when you die, you will go to an actual real physical placed called Hell (Hades) (That will eventually be cast into the Lake of Fire). I believe that the Bible teaches that Hell (Hades) is a real place of torment and not torture (Which leads to the Judgment and then the Lake of Fire). The Lake of Fire is what you have to fear the most. For Jesus says, fear him who is able to destroy both body and soul in Hell, (This is not Hell as in Hades. The Greek word is "Gehenna") (Which is the Lake of Fire) (Matthew 10:28). In addition, Jesus was of course speaking in the third person and was actually referencing Himself. In other words, Jesus was saying to fear Him; For He has the power to punish you in the Lake of Fire.
Why do we have to fear the Lake of Fire? Well, we are to realize the fact that if we do not turn from our wicked ways of sin, then we are to fear that Christ will punish us and then destroy us both body and soul in Gehenna. This is the second death (i.e. the Lake of Fire). Which will not be a pleasant place to go to. It will still be very painful (regardless of the amount of time that a wicked person might spend there). For we do not know how long a person will suffer in this Lake of Fire before they perish. It could be 5 days or 5 years or 50 years. What we do know is God will judge the wicked fairly according to the types of sins that they committed here in this life. But please know that one's punishment will not be pleasant, though. It will no doubt be really horrible and painful. For Jesus tied the word "fear" in relation to the Lake of Fire. Jesus also said it is better to cast one's eye into Hell than to have one's whole body cast into this fire. So I wouldn't mess around by not trusting in Him as your Savior, my friend. Jesus loves you and He wants to save you from such a place. For you have everything to lose by not believing.
Last edited:
Jesus said "Fear the one who is able to destroy both body and soul in hell (Gehenna)". He didn't say "Fear the one who is able to eternally torment the soul in hell".
You ask, "Why would a nonbeliever fear God?" Because God has the power of life or death. We can receive eternal life from God, bur if we refuse to receive eternal life from God, then we do not have eternal life. This means that we will perish without God. The Bible never says that unbelievers receive eternal life in hell being tormented alive forever.
You say that it is a shame that the Bible is not more concise. Some people have inserted their own beliefs into the Bible, and they insist on having things their own way. We who believe that the soul is destroyed in hell (and not tortured forever) just want to correct the error that the others have inserted into Christianity. I believe the Bible is concise. Romans 6:23 says "for the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." That's concise, there are only two possible outcomes, eternal life or death. It is only when the others want to deny that death really means death that the issue get confused.
Ben Masada
New member
For an atheist, you seem to want to know a lot about Theism. Well, you are welcome as I am concerned. Let us start with the universe. As you know, I hope, the universe could not have caused itself to exist. Since it had a beginning, according to many cosmologists, from the big bang, do you have any idea who or what caused the universe to begin if it could not have caused itself to begin? That's a question based on the Logic that someone or something did that job
for the universe to exist today.
When Einstein was asked if he believed in God, he said that, as a matter of fact, all his life was trying to catch God at His work of Creation. At the time this question was put to him, he was involved on a study about the expansion of the universe which he related it to God's Creation. Do you think that the expansion of the universe is a kind of continuation of God's Creation?
Elwirfo
New member
If there is a creator of the universe, I doubt I get to choose. Your question reminds me that man has been choosing gods for a very long time.
To answer your question with respect to the topic, I would prefer a god that does not torture people/souls. It seems especially wicked when there is such lack of clarity on how to avoid this fate, as shown by the debates by all the thoughtful people on these forums.
The ECT version seems petty. Like a parent who has to use hitting to discipline their child. I would expect a god to be above this primitive fear tactic.
Elwirfo
New member
Conditionalism still seems like the angry parent who can't think of a good reasonable punishment or persuasion and just resorts to the extreme OR ELSE persuasion. This does not seem like wisdom to this 21st century thinker.
Could God have come up with something else? Like revealing himself after death and saying " surprise!" I was real after all, now you get the restricted meal plan in the afterlife?
Or is this method of his personality? Or did he not have a choice in this matter? I ask because it may speak to The creator's moral leadership.
Elwirfo
New member
So you would argue that an atheist is just giving up eternal life with god and will return to the "nothingness" we came from? Now you just have to convince me that your god is worth hanging with for eternity. Hopefully it isn't some sort of endless worshiping.
We'll actually, I have other issues to overcome before believing, but those issues can be expressed on another thread.
Elwirfo
New member
We are going a bit off topic here. Maybe I will start a new topic titled "practice your apologetics here". Not sure if that is appropriate for this site.
Briefly, I don't think anyone can Know that the universe didn't create itself. Perhaps the universe has its own consciousness? Maybe it can change its form. Nobody knows.
If the universe had an outside agent that created it, whatever we hypothesize just begs the question. I am very creative. I can give you lots of ways the universe came into existence, or even just always existed. We are just conjecturing. Doesn't matter because you could just ask me what created my higher creation?
If I concede that to a universe starter, we have no way of connecting the dots to any specific creation stories told throughout human history. These arguments work for many of them. How do I know which one?