Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?

[Timotheos]

So you would argue that an atheist is just giving up eternal life with god and will return to the "nothingness" we came from? Now you just have to convince me that your god is worth hanging with for eternity. Hopefully it isn't some sort of endless worshiping.

We'll actually, I have other issues to overcome before believing, but those issues can be expressed on another thread.

Don't you believe that eternal life is a good thing?

I enjoy my life, and I am looking forward to having eternal life.
I don't think that the lost return to "nothing", I agree with God that the lost return to the dust that they were created from. See Genesis 3. Eternal life is much better than being dust in the wind. I don't know what we will do with our eternal lives. I don't know if it will be an endless church service, but I doubt it. That would be kind of dull.

 

[chrysostom]

Don't you believe that eternal life is a good thing?

I enjoy my life, and I am looking forward to having eternal life.
I don't think that the lost return to "nothing", I agree with God that the lost return to the dust that they were created from. See Genesis 3. Eternal life is much better than being dust in the wind. I don't know what we will do with our eternal lives. I don't know if it will be an endless church service, but I doubt it. That would be kind of dull.

I hope there will be lots of singing and dancing

 

[Jason0047]

Conditionalism still seems like the angry parent who can't think of a good reasonable punishment or persuasion and just resorts to the extreme OR ELSE persuasion. This does not seem like wisdom to this 21st century thinker.

Could God have come up with something else? Like revealing himself after death and saying " surprise!" I was real after all, now you get the restricted meal plan in the afterlife?

Or is this method of his personality? Or did he not have a choice in this matter? I ask because it may speak to The creator's moral leadership.

How do you see the fact that Conditionalism is making God out to be an angry parent? Have you died and seen just how horrible and hurtful your sins were against God and man? Should evil be rewarded with good? Or should not evil be punished? Do you realize that Conditionalism teaches that the time of punishment is determined by God? That a person could be punished for 5 minutes, 5 hours, 5 days, or 5 years. For we do not know the length of punishment for each person. What we do know from in the Scriptures is that God is fair and just in His judgments. So if people are going to burn in the Lake of Fire, then you have to realize that man's sin is worse than you think it is. And a wicked person will not spend 1 minute more or less than what is required of them for their punishment; Then they will perish.

However, God so loved the world that He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. Why is this? Well, Christ (God) desires to have a loving relationship with all peoples. Those who will choose not to love Him will eventually be destroyed both body in soul in Gehenna in time. All evil will eventually be destroyed and God will gain the victory over the devil's kingdom. God will win over evil, sin, and death. For only God and His righteousness and goodness will one day remain only. The thing is. Do you want to be with God and His good kingdom? The choice is yours (of course), my friend.

Anyways, may God bless you.
And please be well this fine day.

 

[aikido7]

Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT) biblical or not?

Which verses in the Bible support ECT and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?

There is no aspect of a religious faith that actively acknowledges and practices hurtful behavior towards others. But as militant groups, religious terrorists and disenfranchised angry people are handed a platform to spread their voices and behaviors virtually "free of charge," violence within religion will always be a problem.

I think it is quite human because all faiths contain scapegoating, revenge fantasies and an inability to deal with our human suffering.
Personally, I am convinced through my own experience and research that this comes from our first families when we were very young.

We treat others and ourselves in ways that we were treated.

 

[Timotheos]

There is no aspect of a religious faith that actively acknowledges and practices hurtful behavior towards others. But as militant groups, religious terrorists and disenfranchised angry people are handed a platform to spread their voices and behaviors virtually "free of charge," violence within religion will always be a problem.

I think it is quite human because all faiths contain scapegoating, revenge fantasies and an inability to deal with our human suffering.
Personally, I am convinced through my own experience and research that this comes from our first families when we were very young.

We treat others and ourselves in ways that we were treated.

But which verses in the Bible support Eternal Conscious Torture and which verses in the bible support the doctrine that the wicked perish instead?

 

[Aimiel]

They are quite obvious.

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Timotheos]

They are quite obvious.

Posted from the TOL App!

Thanks Aimiel, I agree. There are many verses in the Bible which support the doctrine that the wicked will perish, and they are quite obvious.

 

[Ben Masada]

We are going a bit off topic here. Maybe I will start a new topic titled "practice your apologetics here". Not sure if that is appropriate for this site.

Briefly, I don't think anyone can Know that the universe didn't create itself. Perhaps the universe has its own consciousness? Maybe it can change its form. Nobody knows.

If the universe had an outside agent that created it, whatever we hypothesize just begs the question. I am very creative. I can give you lots of ways the universe came into existence, or even just always existed. We are just conjecturing. Doesn't matter because you could just ask me what created my higher creation?

If I concede that to a universe starter, we have no way of connecting the dots to any specific creation stories told throughout human history. These arguments work for many of them. How do I know which one?

What's the matter Elwirfo? Did you get cold-feet all of a sudden? Don't be afraid because this theist won't bite. I am aware that you don't know. Usually, atheists know only one thing; that the Primal Cause does not exist. And to prevent any further attempt into the causality of existent things, they arm themselves with the only weapon they have: I don't know. Take a look at this for starters:

The Ultimate Evidence of God

In 1922 the Theory of the big bang was the gift Science needed to break up with Aristotle that the universe was infinite. It was the gift of a Theist, George Lemaitre with the discovery that the universe did have its beginning.

Now, the point is to demonstrate what or who caused the universe to begin because from the logical point of view, the universe could not have caused itself to exist. Simply because being the universe composed of matter and matter cannot cause itself to exist, the Primal Cause has ultimately become obvious.

Now, to all atheists, I have the following message: I am ready to give you the benefit of the doubt and probably even my word that I am ready to change my views about the universe if there is one that believes the universe caused itself to exist. If the answer stands the screening of Logic, my proposal is as good as gold that I'll be no longer a theist.

 

[everready]

The word of God is abundantly clear on this subject.. here in this world we judge things by the way we see things and events but we're not talking about this world we're talking about eternity..

II Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

eternal life is eternal eternal damnation is eternal, but in order for you to be able to understand this text you must be born again...

everready

 

[Aimiel]

The word of God is abundantly clear on this subject.. here in this world we judge things by the way we see things and events but we're not talking about this world we're talking about eternity..

II Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

eternal life is eternal eternal damnation is eternal, but in order for you to be able to understand this text you must be born again...

everready

Amen.

Posted from the TOL App!

 

[Timotheos]

The word of God is abundantly clear on this subject.. here in this world we judge things by the way we see things and events but we're not talking about this world we're talking about eternity..

II Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

eternal life is eternal eternal damnation is eternal, but in order for you to be able to understand this text you must be born again...

everready

Eternal life is having eternal life, life that is eternal. Not having eternal life means not having eternal life. That means that a person who doesn't have eternal life will someday perish. they will be dead forever. This means that they won't have eternal life. They won't have eternal life in heaven, on earth or in hell being tormented or tortured alive forever. They can't be tortured alive forever, because they do not have eternal life. They will have perished, just as the Bible says.

By the way, I understand this and I am born again.

 

[God's Truth]

Timotheos,

In this thread, you have said that God would not allow people to suffer in hell for eternity.

Tell me, how do these scriptures make you feel?

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.


2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;


2 Peter 2:9
if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

 

[Timotheos]

Timotheos,

In this thread, you have said that God would not allow people to suffer in hell for eternity.

I don't think I ever said that. I have said that the penalty for sin is death, and only those who receive eternal life from Christ will receive eternal life. The lost will perish, just as the Bible says. This is what I believe.

Tell me, how do these scriptures make you feel?

Jude 1:6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their proper dwelling--these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day.

I believe that their judgment on the great day of judgment is to be destroyed, just as the Bible says. Have you read on in Jude where he says that the destruction of Sodom is an example of the coming judgment? Since Sodom was destroyed, we know that the coming judgment is destruction, not eternal conscious torment in hell. I feel bad when I think of people who will be destroyed. It is not my will that any should perish, but all that come to repentance. I don't like that they will be destroyed, but I accept the fact that some people will reject God's offer of eternal life.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them in chains of darkness to be held for judgment;

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
Even if the angels are held in darkness before the judgment, this does not mean that they will not be destroyed as a result of their judgment. And it certainly doesn't mean that people who bring swift destruction will not be destroyed swiftly. Do you believe that Peter contradicts himself in one chapter?

2 Peter 2:9
if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from trials and to hold the unrighteous for punishment on the day of judgment.

I believe that the unrighteous will be held for punishment on the day of judgment, and I agree with the Bible which says that the punishment is death, destruction, perishing, being consumed by fire, etc. I don't agree that the Bible says that the punishment is to have eternal life in hell being tortured or tormented alive for all eternity. What is my feeling about this? I believe that God is just, and the punishment of the lost will also be just. I believe that it will be just that the lost perish.

Jude 1:13
They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

I think that it is interesting that you can't produce even one verse that actually says that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever, but you think that these verses which don't say that can somehow infer that that the lost are tortured alive forever. Have you seen in Jude where he says that the coming judgment is the same as the judgment of Sodom which was destroyed?

How do you feel about John 3:16 which specifically says what I am saying, and completely contradicts the false doctrine that the lost will never perish? "...whoever believes in him shall not perish but will have eternal life".

 

[God's Truth]

I don't think I ever said that. I have said that the penalty for sin is death, and only those who receive eternal life from Christ will receive eternal life. The lost will perish, just as the Bible says. This is what I believe.

You have said that God would not allow people to suffer in hell for eternity.

I believe that their judgment on the great day of judgment is to be destroyed, just as the Bible says. Have you read on in Jude where he says that the destruction of Sodom is an example of the coming judgment? Since Sodom was destroyed, we know that the coming judgment is destruction, not eternal conscious torment in hell.

Humans live on in the spirit after the death of the body.

I feel bad when I think of people who will be destroyed. It is not my will that any should perish, but all that come to repentance. I don't like that they will be destroyed, but I accept the fact that some people will reject God's offer of eternal life.

How do you feel about those angles still being held in chains of darkness for so long?

But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
Even if the angels are held in darkness before the judgment, this does not mean that they will not be destroyed as a result of their judgment. And it certainly doesn't mean that people who bring swift destruction will not be destroyed swiftly. Do you believe that Peter contradicts himself in one chapter?

Peter is speaking about swift destruction, not annihilation of the spirit.

I believe that the unrighteous will be held for punishment on the day of judgment, and I agree with the Bible which says that the punishment is death, destruction, perishing, being consumed by fire, etc. I don't agree that the Bible says that the punishment is to have eternal life in hell being tortured or tormented alive for all eternity. What is my feeling about this? I believe that God is just, and the punishment of the lost will also be just. I believe that it will be just that the lost perish.

The Bible says the unrighteous are held for punishment. You go against that teaching in more than one way. You say we do not have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies, and that God does not torture people for long.

I think that it is interesting that you can't produce even one verse that actually says that the lost will go to hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever, but you think that these verses which don't say that can somehow infer that that the lost are tortured alive forever. Have you seen in Jude where he says that the coming judgment is the same as the judgment of Sodom which was destroyed?

How do you feel about John 3:16 which specifically says what I am saying, and completely contradicts the false doctrine that the lost will never perish? "...whoever believes in him shall not perish but will have eternal life".

I have no idea what you are trying to say. You have false beliefs about spirits dying and about God not really meaning what He says, as when he says, “he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 14:10-11

 

[Timotheos]

You have said that God would not allow people to suffer in hell for eternity.

If you say so. I don't recall saying that. Can you show me where I said that? I know that I said that the Bible never says that the lost go to hell where they suffer for eternity. Is this what you are referring to?

Humans live on in the spirit after the death of the body.

Can you show me where in the Bible it says "Humans live on in the spirit after the death of the body"? I know that the Bible says "The soul who sins shall die". If you want, I can show you where the Bible says this.

How do you feel about those angles still being held in chains of darkness for so long?

I feel bad for them, but I feel that God's judgment will be just when these angels are judged.

Peter is speaking about swift destruction, not annihilation of the spirit.

Yes, Peter is talking about swift destruction. What do you mean by "annihilation"? The false teachers will be swiftly destroyed. That is what I believe, because that is what the Bible says. If you believe that they won't be destroyed, but will be kept forever in hell being tormented alive instead of being destroyed, how do you feel about Peter's words that specifically say that they will be destroyed instead of being eternally tormented alive?

The Bible says the unrighteous are held for punishment.

Yes...

You go against that teaching in more than one way.

No, Peter does not say that the unrighteous are held for eternal conscious torment, he says punishment. And I do NOT go against that teaching, because I believe that they will be judged and punished on judgment day. They will perish. That is their punishment, just as the Bible says.

You say we do not have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies,

Actually, I merely asked you to tell me where the Bible says that we have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies. You couldn't show me why you believe this is true. If you show me a Bible verse that says "We have spirits that live on after the death of our bodies", I will happily believe you. I believe that we will be resurrected to real life when Jesus returns.

and that God does not torture people for long.

I never said that. The truth is that I don't believe that God tortures the lost AT ALL. I believe that the lost will perish just as the Bible says. But if you know of a verse that says "God will torture people" let me know.

I have no idea what you are trying to say. You have false beliefs about spirits dying

What? When did I say this? I said that the Bible says that the soul who sins shall die, and the Bible does say this. Look it up for yourself in Ezekiel 18:4. Then I asked you to show me where the Bible says that we live as ghostly spirits when we die.

and about God not really meaning what He says,

Now really. When did I EVER say "God doesn't really mean what he says"? I think you are just making stuff up.

as when he says, “he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 14:10-11

I believe that. Notice how it never says "Their torment will last forever", also notice that it is talking about a specific subset of people, those who worship the beast and receive his mark, not every person who ever lived.

Is that really the best verse you have? It doesn't say "The lost will go to hell when they die where they will live forever being tormented alive forever." The very BEST verse you have doesn't say what you want it to say, while every verse I've quoted actually does say what I believe. Romans 6:23 "the wages of sin is death", John 3:16 "whoever believes in him shall not perish" Ezekiel 18:4 "The soul who sins shall die", Matthew 7:13 "The way is wide that leads to destruction".

You don't have even one verse that agrees with your doctrine. But you expect me to believe you anyway? Face it, your doctrine is unbiblical.

 

[Timotheos]

GT, you never answered my question, even though I fully answered yours:

How do you feel about John 3:16 which specifically says what I am saying, and completely contradicts the false doctrine that the lost will never perish? "...whoever believes in him shall not perish but will have eternal life".

I think fairness dictates that you should answer my question. How do you feel about John 3:16 which contradicts your false doctrine?

Here is the verse:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
As you can see, those who believe in him will not perish, while those who do not believe in him shall perish and will not have eternal life.

How do you feel upon seeing that Jesus Christ Himself disagrees with your false doctrine?

 

[Aimiel]

I have no idea what you are trying to say. You have false beliefs about spirits dying and about God not really meaning what He says, as when he says, “he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”
Revelation 14:10-11

All he can ever do is to ignore this passage as well as any other which points to ECT. It's his trademark.

 

[Timotheos]

All he can ever do is to ignore this passage as well as any other which points to ECT. It's his trademark.

I don't ignore it. It doesn't say that the lost go to hell when they die where they will be conscious of torment forever.

What do you think of John 3:16, since "Godstruth" keeps ignoring it?
Why shouldn't I believe John 3:16 just as it is written?
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

As you can see, those who believe in him will not perish, while those who do not believe in him shall perish and will not have eternal life.

Godstruth keeps ignoring John 3:16 as well as any other which points to the lost perishing. It's his trademark.

 

[Aimiel]

I don't ignore it. It doesn't say that the lost go to hell when they die where they will be conscious of torment forever.

What do you think it says then? It certainly doesn't support your theories.

 

[Timotheos]

What do you think it says then? It certainly doesn't support your theories.

If I tell you what I think Revelation 14:11 says, will you finally address John 3:16?

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Check yes or no :crackup:
I'm a little tired of skipping to your rope.