Jordan Fontenot
New member
Mark 9:43
Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment biblical or not?
- Thread starter Timotheos
- Start date
Mark 9:43
Jason0047
Member
Well, if the Lord casts someone into everlasting (unquenchable) fire, who is to say that the person cast in, is everlasting or eternal also? Author John R. Stott makes a great point on this:
"...it would seem strange...if people who are said to suffer destruction are in fact not destroyed...it is difficult to imagine a perpetually inconclusive process of perishing."
(J. Stott and D. Edwards, Essentials: A Liberal-Evangelical Dialogue, London: Hodder & Stoughton, 1988, page 316).
For example: The wild fires that took place in California almost seem like they are unquenchable. In fact, a fire can be unquenchable if someone actively keeps it going. However, that does not mean that what is cast into that unquenchable fire is going to last forever. Real life shows us that fire eventually destroys, or causes things to perish or to die or to turn things into ashes. Which are words that are used in relation to the destruction of the wicked.
In addition, then there is the moral issue, as well. Would you approve of your government torturing people for their entire lives for those who were clearly convicted of crimes that were exceptionally wrong? You know, clear evidence that they committed the crime. What then? Should we not follow God's example and torture people for their entire lives just as God tortures people for their supposedly everlasting life? Don't we punish people according to their crimes they committed here? Does not the punishment fit the crime? Is that not just and fair the way we do things? How can God being more loving and just than man do any less?
I mean, I get it. I used to believe in Eternal Torment and defend it, too. I thought to myself that this is what the majority of evangelical churches believe, so it must be true. But I decided to dig deeper within God's Word because of the moral issue that kept coming back to me.
Anyways, pray about it and seek the Scriptures for yourself, my friend.
I hope the Lord will guide you into the truth on the topic as He has done for me.
In any event, God bless you.
And please be well.
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Thanks Jordan, Mark 9:43 says:
"And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire."
This does not say (AT ALL) that the person who goes into the unquenchable remains alive in it forever being tortured by the fire. Since fire destroys what it burns, this completely agrees with what Jesus and I are saying, that you and I should fear the one who can destroy both the body and soul in hell. As Jason pointed out, it would be strange if the person who is said to be destroyed is in fact not destroyed. This verse does nothing to prove that the person who will be destroyed by Gehenna's fire will actually NOT be destroyed by Gehenna's fire.
In general, it is not the best practice to debate by just posting a verse, obviously I have read all of the verses in the Bible, and I believe that they support the doctrine that I believe is true. When you post a verse, you should also post WHY you think that verse supports your doctrine. For example, you could post "Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, so we know that the wages of sin is eternal life being tortured in hell." It wouldn't make any sense, but I'm used to arguments from ECTists that don't make sense.
rev 14:11
/thread
:wave2:
/thread
:wave2:
Aimiel
Well-known member
They actually read Revelation 14:9-11 and still don't see where men are condemned to eternal conscious torment...
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
Ben Masada
New member
Sorry Lady, but I think you are referring to the Christian Bible and not the Bible that Jesus used to refer to as the Word of God. That the NT would ever rise, Jesus never even dreamed it would.
Aimiel
Well-known member
She's referring to the ENTIRE Bible. Yours is incomplete without the New Testament, which Jesus cut in His Own Blood. The Word was made Flesh and dwelt among us. He was in the world and the world was made by Him and the world didn't recognize Him. You are of the world.
Jason0047
Member
Thank you Tim for the kind words. I think every theology in the Scriptures should be backed up with logic and reason and should support the good moral character of our God. However, again, I think the problem arises because many think that the church cannot be wrong in their theology, though. I say this not to boast but in humbleness of spirit so as to show that truth is not always a popular thing.
Anyways, I think there are several reasons why God does not reveal every single truth to all believers, though. I believe one major reason has to do with love. For just because we all believe differently on non-salvation issues within the Scriptures (Such as this topic), we should learn to tolerate and or love each other all the more despite our differences in our walk with God. Which is why I am so happy that you and Jordan and others here in this thread have been loving and tolerant of each other on this topic so far. This I believe is one of the biggest tests (i.e. 1 Corinthians 13). Granted, I would love to see all my brothers and sisters learn about how ECT is false, but if they are loving and tolerant to us Conditionalists and other ECT proponents, then they clearly proving themselves to be a true believer who loves God and all other people for real (Which makes me happy). But I do understand that this false teaching is still a problem, though. So it is my prayer that ECT proponents do come to the truth on this matter. For I believe their efforts are being hindered in preaching the gospel because there are many who will not come to the faith because they wrongfully think God is a monster for torturing people for a finite amount of crimes done against Him and or others.
Jason0047
Member
I had already addressed Revelation 14:11 here:
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3893226#post3893226
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3893226#post3893226
Jordan Fontenot
New member
Let me just tell you where I am coming from.
I am a member of the churches of Christ, which was one of the first denominations to not only accept but perpetuate the idea of annihilation. Trust me when I say that this idea has a lot of appeal to me and that I have heard very intelligent and reliable arguments supporting this theory.
However in posting a single passage without telling you where I was coming from, while you say you believe all scriptures point to your theory, you immediately assumed that I was opposing your argument based on a single verse posted without explanation. So you do have some understanding that this particular verse doesn't initially agree with your own theory otherwise you would have been more embracing than abrasive.
That being said I want to ask you if you believe that believers are rewarded with eternal life or if it is, like you say hell is, temporary?
Aimiel
Well-known member
I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.
The verse refers to the punishment of living men who worship the beast detailed in the vials of wrath.
The verse does not refer to anything following the last judgment of Rev.ch 20.
LA
Jason0047
Member
Yeah, your reply was more emotional than informational. I am sorry. And as you know, I replied to that post with very good points, too...
http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3893520#post3893520
why is it more comforting to imagine a God who pulls the wings off flies before smooshing them into oblivion?
if annihilation is the final destination of the damned, isn't it sadistic to make them suffer first?
if annihilation is the final destination of the damned, isn't it sadistic to make them suffer first?
do you consider that an argument?
it was part of timmy's :idunno:
I can't believe that
iirc, he thought ect was sadistic