beloved57
Well-known member
I see you really dont want to know what I believe, I have almost 100 different threads here on what I believe, and what my hope consist of !
Honor God's Son or Perish
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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I see you really dont want to know what I believe, I have almost 100 different threads here on what I believe, and what my hope consist of !
Your hope is that John Calvin was right. Not a chance.
My hope is in Jesus Christ. What about you?
beloved57
Well-known member
You teach that sinners Christ died for, shall wind up perishing in their sins anyway, so nullifying the death of Christ which taketh away their sins !
The only ones that are going to be in heaven are those who have honored God's Son Jesus Christ, by believing in him.
Nanja
Well-known member
The only Faith / Believing in Christ that pleases God is a fruit of the Spirit given in New Birth.
But the natural man's own believing is a work of the flesh which cannot please God Rom. 8:8!
You persistently preach against the Grace of God, and uphold a false gospel of works a man does to get himself saved.
And God has ordained that, too:
Jude 1:4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men,
turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
~~~
Hey Goober, The following is from a Reformed site. Seems as though they are at odds with you.
Is Faith a Work?
FROM R.C. Sproul Jr. Sep 12, 2011 Category: Articles
The Reformation was born out of the biblical conviction that a man is deemed just in the sight of God, forgiven, adopted, not on the basis of his own goodness, but on the basis of the goodness of Christ imputed to him. Not everyone, however, is blessed with this imputation, but only those who trust in that provision, and in that provision alone. The debate at that time, and to this day, has been characterized as faith versus works. Though Rome would not affirm, and indeed rightly condemns crass Pelagianism, the notion that we can earn God’s favor outside His grace, she does see a vital role for our personal righteousness, even while affirming that our righteousness is the result of grace at work in us, with which we must cooperate. In framing the debate as works versus faith, however, some miss the very nature of faith.
One way to err on faith is in fact to turn it into a “work.” In this error we see “faith” as a substitute for our obedience. This view suggests that in the Garden God required total and complete obedience from us in order for us to be at peace with Him. When that failed, God graciously lowered His standard. Now all that He requires of us is that we trust in Him. The trouble with this view is that it wrongly makes faith the ground of our salvation. We stand before the throne of God and He asks why He should allow us into His kingdom. We boldly reply, “Because of my faith.” God then answers, “Faith? I love faith! People with faith, that’s just the kind of people I want to have around. By all means, come on in.” This error in the end is faith in faith, which faith will surely not save. It makes the cross gratuitous, which is blasphemy.
A second error turns faith into a work, and therefore rejects it as vital to our salvation. This view rightly recognizes that it is ultimately the finished work of Christ alone that saves. It rightly affirms that a man is justified because his sins were punished at Calvary, and the obedience of Christ is his. This view rightly affirms solus Christus, by Christ alone. In order, however, to fence off the first error, to be certain we don’t look at our faith as meritorious, it denudes faith of its true nature, turning it into bare assent. This view defines saving faith as agreeing to the truthfulness of the gospel message. This error suffers from two key problems. First, in diminishing the nature of saving faith to bare assent it leaves room even for, in principle, the demons. James says even the demons believe, and shudder (2:19). That is, they know God exists, and hate what they know. It is possible to know something and hate what you know. You can know, you can believe, as the devil himself knows and believes, that Jesus died for sinners, and still not have faith.
The second error here is that it doesn’t solve the problem. If we want to denude faith to be certain it doesn’t turn into a work, how does assent not become a work? Just as with true saving faith I am the one believing, trusting, resting, so even if it is mere assent I am the one assenting. In short, if faith is a work, why isn’t assent a work?
We avoid both problems when we embrace the wisdom of our fathers, the Westminister Divines. In their Shorter Catechism they ask, “What is faith in Jesus Christ?” and answer, “Faith in Jesus Christ is a saving grace, whereby we receive and rest upon Him alone for salvation as He is offered to us in the gospel” (question 86). Faith is not a work on two counts. First, it is a gift from God. It is not just received by grace, but is a grace. Faith is something God gives to us. On our own it is not possible, for we are dead in our trespasses and sins. And note that our faith has a specific object- as He is offered to us in the gospel.”
Second, faith, by its nature, is passive. We rest; we do not work. We receive; we do not earn. There is more to resting than mere assent, but there is not more work. Indeed there is no work at all, just resting and receiving the very ground of our salvation- the work of Christ for us.
Rest. Receive. And rejoice.
SimpleMan77
New member
Paul believed works were required for salvation...
Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt CONFESS with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt BELIEVE in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
CONFESS & BELIEVE are two works.
Paul also said that the only justifying faith is "Faith which worketh by love". Galatians 5:6.
Paul meant that we weren't justified by the works of the Mosaic Law. We also cannot be justified by dead faith that doesn't work by love.
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WRONG!!!
Ephesians 2:8-9New King James Version (NKJV)
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.
SimpleMan77
New member
You have a misunderstanding of grace.
Titus 2:11-14
For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
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You mean unmerited favor? Don't think so. You have a problem with the simplicity of the Gospel. I'll bet you even believe that belief is a work. Another misunderstanding. Shall I continue or is that enough to chew on for a while? I'll even bet that you believe in the heresy of salvation by faith and works when it is specifically condemned by New Testament teaching. Salvation is by grace through faith alone.
No one can save themselves. You keep pushing that garbage.
Jesus is the savior of the whole world, 1 John 2:2. He has provided salvation for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9.
All that he wants us to do now is to believe in his Son Jesus Christ, John 3:16.
We all have the ability to do that, so that God is not responsible for anyone going to hell.
"Whosoever that shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
That is so simple that even a small child can understand it. If you go to hell it won't be God's fault, it will be your fault.
SimpleMan77
New member
Paul said "if you confess with your mouth, and believe in your heart, you'll be saved".
If it's grace alone either 1)everyone will be saved, regardless of whether they decide to believe or not, or 2)Calvin was right, and God created some to torture.
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You really do have a problem with understanding the simplicity of the scriptures You need to;
2 Timothy 2:15 King James Version (KJV)
15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
SimpleMan77
New member
Honor God's Son or Perish
The word "if" means that what follows is conditional.
Paul gave two conditional "ifs" in order to be saved. If you believe in your heart, and if you confess with your mouth.
Tell me how requiring confession with the mouth isn't requiring a work?!?
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The word "if" means that what follows is conditional.
Paul gave two conditional "ifs" in order to be saved. If you believe in your heart, and if you confess with your mouth.
Tell me how requiring confession with the mouth isn't requiring a work?!?
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The following is from Jesus-is-saviour.com You might learn something from it.
Does one have to confess Christ with their mouth to be saved?
By David J. Stewart
Romans 10:9, “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.”
No, a sinner does NOT have to confess Christ with their mouth to be saved. If Romans 10:9 is taken by itself, then one might conclude that salvation requires a person to confess Christ with their mouth to be saved. I have heard false prophets teach this. Many Gospel tracts require a person to audibly confess Christ with their mouth to be saved. This is simply not Biblical. What if a person were mute?
The proper way to interpret the Bible is to compare any particular Scripture to ALL the Scriptures. If all the Scriptures in the Bible agree with a particular doctrine, then you know you've found the truth. If we look at John 12:41-43, we quickly learn that confession with the mouth is NOT necessary for salvation...
“These things said Esaias, when he saw His glory, and spake of Him. Nevertheless among the chief rulers also MANY BELIEVED ON HIM; but because of the Pharisees they DID NOT CONFESS HIM, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.”
The Bible plainly states that many of the Pharisees believed on Jesus, but they did NOT confess Him for fear of persecution. Clearly, a person can be saved without confessing Christ with the mouth, just so long as they BELIEVE in their heart on Jesus as the Christ, the precious Son of God.
Again in Matthew 7:21-23 we read...
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.”
These false prophets confessed with their mouth; but they did not have Christ's righteousness, which is solely by faith in Christ. These false prophets relied upon their self-righteousness, religion devotion and surrender to Christ as Lord. They all went to Hell. There are millions of religious people running around these days, teaching people to make Jesus Lord to be saved; but they are unsaved, self-righteous and hellbound. You don't make Jesus Lord, He is Lord.
The way of salvation is NOT to surrender to Jesus as Lord. Judas was a follower of Jesus, one of His very own apostles; yet, Judas went to Hell in his unbelief. Thousands of people followed Jesus for a handout; but that didn't make them born-again Christians. The Bible is very clear that many people have religion; but they do NOT have eternal life, which is solely obtained by Christ's righteousness (Romans 10:3-4).
A person is saved when they acknowledge their guilt of sin, coming to God on the basis of being a hell-deserving sinner; believing on Jesus, the Christ, the Son of God, to forgive their sins.
Salvation is of the heart. A person can confess “Jesus is Lord” as many times as they want and still go to Hell in their sins. Salvation is about getting your sins forgiven; not about making a commitment to live for God. The plan of salvation has been subtly corrupted in most religious circles these days. The very notion that a person must surrender or make a commitment as part of salvation is damnable heresy. Salvation is receiving; not giving. Eternal life is a free gift from God.
Jesus taught in Matthew 7:21 that confessing “Jesus is Lord” is NOT the way of salvation; but rather, doing the will of the Father is the way of salvation. John 6:40 tells us what the will of the Father is ...
“And this is the will of Him that sent Me, that every one which seeth the Son, and BELIEVETH ON HIM, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
Repeatedly, the Scriptures teach that we are saved simply by believing on Jesus...
John 3:16, “For God so loved the world, that He gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.”
Jesus paid a debt He did not owe, because we owed a debt we could not pay. We are saved by placing our trust in Jesus Christ, the Son of God, Whom God the Father sent into the world to pay our sin debt. If a person comes to God the Father through His Son for forgiveness of sins, they will be saved. John 14:6 ...
John 14:6, “Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, BUT BY ME.”
John 12:41-43 is clear evidence that a person who does not confess Christ with their mouth can still be saved. As mentioned, many of the Pharisees believed, but did NOT confess Christ for fear of rejection. The Bible says they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God (John 12:43). It was wrong that those Pharisees didn't want to confess Christ, but it did not prevent them from being saved.
The important thing is that a person believe on Jesus as the Christ for the forgiveness of sins (Acts 10:43).
Ye Must Be Born Again!
:thumb:
Faith is demonstrated by what we say and do (works), but what we say and do is not what saves us.
We are saved by grace through faith.
Romans 4:16 NET For this reason it is by faith so that it may be by grace, with the result that the promise may be certain to all the descendants - not only to those who are under the law, but also to those who have the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all.
I'll buy that.
SimpleMan77
New member
Absolutely!! If it was possible to keep every commandment without fully believing in God, it wouldn't do a person an ounce of good.
However, if you believe and CHOOSE TO LIVE IN SIN, I'd say you really don't have true faith. Dead faith isn't true faith. That's why James said faith without works is dead.
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I presented this to you. I don't see a contradiction.
Start with Jesus in the Gospels.
Mark 1:15 NASB - 15 and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel."
Now I am thinking of this.
Isaiah 52:7 NASB - 7 How lovely on the mountains Are the feet of him who brings good news, Who announces peace And brings good news of happiness, Who announces salvation, And says to Zion, "Your God reigns!"
I understand that Paul does not disagree with Jesus.
Do you understand about that the gospel has been preached?
It was preached before Paul.
The end has not yet come.
That is my understanding.