Give me biblical support for Christmas.

[clefty]

I encountered your current obsession from a guy by the name of Herbert W. Armstrong in 1980. He was obsessed and so are you. Satan keeps you guys wrapped up in these obsessions and therefore completely off message.

Get truly saved through the gospel of grace and become a true ambassador for Christ for His glory.

The Gospel of Grace is what motivates obedience to Him...faith compels works..His works...not those of the world...compromised to appease and party with and like them...

A true ambassador is more or less like the One they represent?

Pray that His will be done on earth...JUST AS it is in Heaven...Christmas Ham in heaven is there?

 

[clefty]

I encountered your current obsession from a guy by the name of Herbert W. Armstrong in 1980. He was obsessed and so are you. Satan keeps you guys wrapped up in these obsessions and therefore completely off message.

Get truly saved through the gospel of grace and become a true ambassador for Christ for His glory.

Being truly saved is being led by the Spirit to live more like Him not more like pagans celebrating solstice...

Being truly saved means we want to distance ourselves as much as possible from evil and the things of this world...

Being truly saved means we are dead to ourselves and carnal lusts for good times and earthly pleasures...and yearn to be obedient and do His Will His Way...no Christmas Ham there...

Being truly saved means we are aware that Satan prowls like a lion (ironically both a symbol for Rome and Judah) seeking those he can devour with deceptions and counterfeit...and seductions to worship with false worship

 

[clefty]

Sounds like you are familiar with those type parties.
I've never been to a party like that and won't be going to any party like that.

Continuing the practice of Pharisees are you with false witness and attempts to slander?

Nice inference there...even if I did have intimate knowledge of pagan ways I would have more testimony of not only what that truly is but also of the power of the Spirit to transform and turn around a repentant sinner...


Or I could have just read a book...you should try that...in fact start with one of the ones in the OT that describe what occurs amongst the pagans during their festivals and why we should abhore them and flee and certainly NOT assimilate them with new meanings merely to have a blast...cuz we cool like dat

 

[clefty]

I am not a Christian, I am separate from them. And I do wonder what its like to think your the anointed of God and nobody else is.

Ask the original "chosen" ones da Jews...they are more than happy to tell you all about it...

They too felt so confident that they felt they could add/alter their own hedge around the Torah and its prescriptions for good health and living...brace yourself for the Talmud though...that is abit more about their choseness than most outside are comfortable with...

Jews also added not one but two festivals for themselves Purim and Chanukah...

The latter like Christmas tainted with saturnalia...

Here is a brief bit about all that

http://www.sabbatarian.com/content/guidepage49.html

So Christians don't have a monopoly on adding to the word

seems like the oldest of traditions of man beginning long ago with Eve as she too in a desire to emphasize the prohibition to not eat the fruit lied and added her own law of don't even touch it...

 

[Town Heretic]

(uh oh clefty ya got ya one of dem fancy talkin' ones...) lol

And yet you seem to feel fairly superior, so what's the point of the note again outside of underscoring a contrasting humility belied by the notice?

In this case proscription is abundantly clear...the gist of it being don't do what others do to worship theirs their way...or use it to worship the True One falsely...

Not only is the proscription less than clear, your sentence doubles down on the point. Or, if you're going to make particular claims about scripture you should try using scripture to advance your claims. Otherwise you're just repeating yourself with no greater authority than the first time you tried it.

I want to make this clear...if indeed we knew when Yahushua was born than by all means let us celebrate and worship and create new ways of doing it...and even if others make the day about consumerism and crass commercialism so what, I know the real reason for the season...

That's one standard, your own. There's no reason for anyone else to adopt it. One day is as good as the next, the point being a celebration of Jesus and not, say, Jesus plus X, where X is a given day on the calendar.

However we do NOT know when He was born and we have had to take another party over and make it ours...

The thing that matters is what Christians do with the day, not what someone did with the same period in ancient history, or even what some yahoos do with the season today.

Ask yourself this: why didn't the church celebrate His birth in November or October? Or in the spring? Because it wanted to take over the solstice celebrations which were an easier fit to assimilate...parties were already happening to celebrate the long winter nights and the return of the conquering Sun...oh and a son born to virgin mother that wasn't Christian...it was Mithra...

The early church routinely subsumed cultural habits and traditions, supplanting them with Christian symbolism and meaning. And it worked, so that that symbolism is all that remains in any meaningful sense today, outside of a few pagan revivalists.

So it is NOT about "it ain't no commandment durn it" nor is it that Christians celebrate His birth at all nor is about the way we do it...it's that we learned another way to worship from another form of worship to a different god not our own...we took the date and so many of the symbols and customs and just ignored all the very proscriptions against doing so...

You have it backwards. We didn't take on a new way of worshiping or another God. We helped others understand the faith within a context and tradition. It's a bit like...if early Christians had been illiterate warriors and used the alphabet of the heathen to communicate the Gospel, translating it from an oral tradition. Is the alphabet important or is the message you use it to relate? In any event, Christmas as it stands is a time of reflection and celebration of the birth of Christ and the beginning of a process that freed man from sin and death. that's it's meaning and the seasonal attachments support it.

And to add injury to insult we are now offended that it's all about crass consumerism and commercializations LOL...that is what it ALWAYS WAS...eat drink and be merry...for tomorrow it's cold and dark still...here's a gift

My marriage isn't lessened because the next fellow makes a mockery of his. Christmas isn't diminished in our household either. But if the secular elements of the season intrude and diminish or corrupt it for anyone they should withdraw rather than stumble.

They were warned to repent to turn back to the first love NOT given an told "it's ok guys, it ain't proscribed in the scriptures, besides compromise and go along to get along is one way of spreading the gospel and true worship." HARDLY.

You just offered a false parallel, one you didn't really connect except by assuming the connection and forcing one condemnation onto the other.

well then...don't add or take away-just don't alter scripture...just read it and obey...

I'm not doing either. That's just you slathering your sentiment with the appearance of a conclusion that doesn't follow an argument to stand it up.

some here insist it's fine for one to choose a day and another a different day and by that mean to reference Romans 14 which is about choosing a day to fast to alter it to mean Christmas now...or Sabbath on other occasions...awfully convenient text poor Paul is twisted into...

So far you haven't made a particular case against anyone but you celebrating Christmas, making a special consideration of a day given special consideration in scripture.

But it remains...no command to celebrate His bday.

Or to use antibiotics, air conditioning, all sorts of things we aren't told to do or refrain from.

..but certainly plenty to prevent false worship...and anything less than the actual date is false...

Except no one is worshiping the day and there's nothing false about celebrating the birthday of the Christ unless the person doing it literally declares December 25th to be that day. . . and then it's only arguably false.

I guess what we are permitted is permitted by the Spirit for us to see...

You evidenced arrogance and hostility without cause. You might not see it, but it's hard to miss when you read your initial answer to me. If you want to wrap that in the appearance of piety it's your call but it only compounds the error.

I am more and more inclined to believe the church actually knows the date He was born and merely prefers to continue its deception.

Well that clears a few things up. Wish you'd said that from the start. . . you don't happen to believe in a flat earth/global conspiracy to preserve the "mythology" of space travel by any chance?

..Satan uses those willing to not only counterfeit but continue the deception...

He also uses pride.

His resurrection was also bold and no less without notice but here again NO command or instruction to celebrate it

And again, it isn't a religious rite or sacrament. It's an observation. Those happen on different parts of the Bible at least once a week in most churches. No one is arguing we're commanded to do it. We aren't commanded to eat ham either, nor forbidden it.

Titus the Roman who began the assimilation of these superstious Jews...or Titus of "To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work."

See, you found it all on your own.

Funny how the defiled still profess to know God...but they are disobedient...

Sad how eagerly some failed to learn the lesson of the Pharisees. Put down those robes. That's done with.

 

[clefty]

Town Heretic:No one is arguing we are commanded to do it. We aren't commanded to eat Ham either nor forbidden it.

Right there.

Are you a citizen of Israel? Paul said you are. They are forbidden it.

Are you wishing to be more like or less like your Saviour? He lived a life without Ham. And asked you do the same.

Are you expecting that the early church was allowed ham but just make sure it was not offered to idols, was free of blood and not strangled? Keep the dietary laws just not some...?

Jeremiah 10:2
"Unto the way of the nations accustom not yourselves.”

That is exactly forbidding Ham as that is one of the ways of the nations.

Corinthians 10:7
"Do not be idolaters, as some of them were. As it is written: "The people sat down to eat and to drink, and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

You imagine pork not on the menu during this revelry?

"Here are they that keep the Commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Either of these allow for Ham?

I can not support Christmas for the same reasons I cannot support using props like the rosary, infant baptism, or Worship on Sunday or astrology...not only are none of these allowed in scripture but and because it was already practiced by pagans...

Assimilation was used well...outside of scripture...

Tell Augustine that he should be no means destroy the temples of the gods but rather the idols within those temples. Let him, after he has purified them with holy water, place altars and relics of the saints in them. For, if those temples are well built, they should be converted from the worship of demons to the service of the true God. Thus, seeing that their places of worship are not destroyed, the people will banish error from their hearts and come to places familiar and dear to themin acknowledgement and worship of the true God.

Further, since it has been their custom to slaughter oxen in sacrifice, they should receive some solemnity in exchange. Let them therefore, on the day of the dedication of their churches, or on the feast of the martyrs whose relics are preserved in them, build themselves huts around their one-time temples and celebrate the occasion with religious feasting. They will sacrifice and eat the animals not any more as an offering to the devil, but for the glory of God to whom, as the giver of all things, they will give thanks for having been satiated. Thus, if they are not deprived of all exterior joys, they will more easily taste the interior ones. For surely it is impossible to efface all at once everything from their strong minds, just as, when one wishes to reach the top of a mountain, he must climb by stages and step by step, not by leaps and bounds.

— Bede, Historia ecclesiastica gentis Anglorum (1.30)

For the comfort and sentimentalities of the people...

Worship in Spirit and Truth needs no house made with hands...especially one "formerly" home to demons...not ironic the Vatican itself was the site of such a house...


As for me and my house we will serve the Lord...which means when a brother warns me that my favorite and clean steak was nevertheless offered to an idol...I STOP eating it. Spit it from my mouth because it was made pagan first.

Paul copying Him was clear "You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord’s table and of the table of demons."

 

[musterion]

I can not support Christmas for the same reasons I cannot support using props like the rosary, infant baptism, or Worship on Sunday or astrology...not only are none of these allowed in scripture but and because it was already practiced by pagans...

I think nothing of Christmas. Believers cannot know Christ "according to the flesh" but that is exactly the focus of Christmas. As it stands, we're under grace so I have no real problem with it in itself -- we all stand before God on our own and "the season" does not affect me so I literally do not care. It's when devout people begin to judge others for not "observing Christmas" that I get annoyed.

The purported focus of what's called Easter is much closer to what Paul said the believer is to constantly keep in mind, but the holiday itself is considerably more problematic than Christmas.

 

[clefty]

clefty: I am more and more inclined to believe the church actually knows the date He was born and merely prefers to continue its deception.

"There is a deeper meaning and real significance to the conclusion that Jesus was probably born during the Feast of Tabernacles, thus bringing partial fulfillment to the prophetic type of that important feast established by God. Tabernacles (booths) are temporary, insecure dwellings and emphasize our reliance on God’s grace. So also the temporary human body in which the Son of God dwelled among us demonstrated what total reliance on God can accomplish."

http://christinprophecy.org/articles/when-was-jesus-born/

Already clearing things up abit...

Imagine that! the reasons for the pagan seasons having His own seasons for His own reasons...

 

[clefty]

I think nothing of Christmas. Believers cannot know Christ "according to the flesh" but that is exactly the focus of Christmas. As it stands, we're under grace so I have no real problem with it in itself -- we all stand before God on our own and "the season" does not affect me so I literally do not care.

you don't mind that it may have cheapened the faith or does continue further deceptions among our brothers?

It's when devout people begin to judge others for not "observing Christmas" that I get annoyed.

you mean look beyond its saturnalia and seek deeper meaning...Hmmmm or should I say when the devote people just keep it to the false facade it is merely the day we celebrate little baby Jesus...

The purported focus of what's called Easter is much closer to what Paul said the believer is to constantly keep in mind, but the holiday itself is considerably more problematic than Christmas.

Ahhh yes Easter. And Paul's warnings against being corrupted we should keep in mind?

Is it problematic for you that the entire calendar was literally divorced from what is biblical in order to distance Christianity from what is true?

I mean it's one thing to merely make false claims about an event and an entirely different thing the method and manner those claims are sustained...

 

[musterion]

you don't mind that it may have cheapened the faith or does continue further deceptions among our brothers?

First, no one is my brother who does not believe the Gospel of the grace of God. That excludes most in Christendom from brotherhood with me, and me with them.

Second, there's nothing I can do about it; the tradition is too deeply ingrained in Christendom and in society to make any dent that hasn't already been made. People WANT to believe such things. That's a very powerful force.

Third, as I thought I said above, each believer will answer to his/her Master in the end.

Is it problematic for you that the entire calendar was literally divorced from what is biblical in order to distance Christianity from what is true?

Again...what do you expect me to do about it beyond what I've already done -- exempt myself from participation? The Easter tradition is likewise too deeply ingrained in most. I've found it is always a waste of time to argue about either with those who WANT to believe there's some biblically spiritual aspect to Christmas and Easter (and it's these people especially whom I refer to).

 

[clefty]

First, no one is my brother who does not believe the Gospel of the grace of God. That excludes most in Christendom from brotherhood with me, and me with them.

yes straight is the path narrow the gate and few...impossible even for those holding on to their own value

Second, there's nothing I can do about it; the tradition is too deeply ingrained in Christendom and in society to make any dent that hasn't already been made. People WANT to believe such things. That's a very powerful force.

yes our battle is not with flesh and blood but with that force...and victory being already one we should merely seek the fruit of the end time harvest...it may be too late to plant new seeds but maybe there is still harvest work to be done...

Third, as I thought I said above, each believer will answer to his/her Master in the end.

and perhaps we are the winnowing fork to seperating the kernels from the chaff...Truth does that...

Again...what do you expect me to do about it beyond what I've already done -- exempt myself from participation?

only what is expected of all of us...go into all the innernutz and forums and teach and preach that gospel truth and baptize the willing...lol

Easter tradition is likewise too deeply ingrained in most. I've found it is always a waste of time to argue about either with those who WANT to believe there's some biblically spiritual aspect to Christmas and Easter (and it's these people especially whom I refer to).

Sure...one must be cautious casting pearls...but we have soooo many...lol

Ok suit yourself but I have learned from my time with those steeped in man's traditions and have had to cleanse myself of much as well...not necessarily a waste of time...

 

[Mickiel]

Okay day 5 and no Christian support for Christmas, I think I can say there is none. They just celebrate it because they worship the traditions of men. Their stuck on it and will defend it until they die. They are totally blinded by it. Totally committed to a pagan holiday ; period!

As they are to Easter and the Trinity, Now I ask for biblical support for either of these two; lets have it.

And I want those readers who are just passing by , just watch how these Christians fail to step up to their beliefs when asked for biblical proof. How they squirm away from it.

 

[balut55]

The Gospel of Grace is what motivates obedience to Him...faith compels works..His works...not those of the world...compromised to appease and party with and like them...

A true ambassador is more or less like the One they represent?

Pray that His will be done on earth...JUST AS it is in Heaven...Christmas Ham in heaven is there?

Sometimes the blogs are meant for non-believers. We aren't getting wrapped up in Christmas-pun excuse- teaching the lies to non-believers so maybe they will understand truth.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[Town Heretic]

"Here are they that keep the Commandments of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ."

Either of these allow for Ham?

“Do you not understand that whatever goes into the man from outside cannot defile him; because it does not go into his heart, but into his stomach, and is eliminated?” Mark 7:18-19

And, "Therefore let no one act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day— 17things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ." (Col. 2:16-17).

But if you want the law unfulfilled go and fail the law that was given to you so that you would understand the cross and your need for grace. Our covenant is a new one.

I can not support Christmas for the same reasons I cannot support using props like the rosary, infant baptism, or Worship on Sunday or astrology...not only are none of these allowed in scripture but and because it was already practiced by pagans...

You can take your problems with the Catholics to the Catholics. Sunday? Since you threw Augustine in: "The Sabbath was the end of the first creation, the Lord's day was the beginning of the second, in which he renewed and restored the old in the same way as he prescribed that they should formerly observe the Sabbath as a memorial of the end of the first things, so we honor the Lord's day as being the memorial of the new creation" (Athanasius, On Sabbath and Circumcision 3).

But why quibble. We who are in Christ rest in the master of the Sabbath, which was made for man, not man for it. But as with Christmas, you should follow in the practice that seems right to you.

"One man regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Let each man be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God," (Rom. 14:5-6).

Tell Augustine

What part of the Bible do I find Augustine in? And there is a difference between taking a ritual in and replacing a ritual with.

As for me and my house we will serve the Lord

Says everyone who loves God, but go two feet and they're squabbling over the form of the service, dividing, bickering, sure of the rightness of our reckoning and confusing it with the clear understanding of scripture. People. We do our best, but beyond the salvific, we're a holy mess.

And so, the need for grace from God and long-suffering among one another.

 

[meshak]

Okay day 5 and no Christian support for Christmas, I think I can say there is none. They just celebrate it because they worship the traditions of men. Their stuck on it and will defend it until they die. They are totally blinded by it. Totally committed to a pagan holiday ; period!

As they are to Easter and the Trinity, Now I ask for biblical support for either of these two; lets have it.

And I want those readers who are just passing by , just watch how these Christians fail to step up to their beliefs when asked for biblical proof. How they squirm away from it.

But according to you, we are all saved even pagan worshippers. So what's the deal here?

 

[Town Heretic]

Okay day 5 and no Christian support for Christmas,

Not true, but if it makes you feel better consider it a present...unless you can't accept those. :think:

I think I can say there is none.

You can say the earth is flat, but it won't make it true. Unless you're talking to Dave, of course.

They just celebrate it because they worship the traditions of men.

Remind everyone again how judgmental Christians are. What you don't understand about Christmas in my house would fill...your noggin with something less likely to make you feel superior while complaining about those superior feeling Christians.

Their stuck on it and will defend it until they die. They are totally blinded by it. Totally committed to a pagan holiday ; period!

As they are to Easter and the Trinity

Ah, so that's who you are. Why didn't you say so to begin with? If you can't recognize who Jesus is, talking about what you think he wants is pointless.

And I want those readers who are just passing by , just watch how these Christians fail to step up to their beliefs when asked for biblical proof. How they squirm away from it.

Anyone happening by would catch the spirit of your approach, summed at the end of that sentence. Such is forum life.

 

[Tambora]

Speaking of adding things .....

Neither Satrunalia or Winter Solstice fell on Dec 25th.

 

[meshak]

Mickiel,

FYI, I don't cerebrate Christmas nor Easter, either.

 

[Tambora]

Okay day 5 and no Christian support for Christmas,

You've seen a lot of folks here say they party on Dec 25th.
But no one here has said it was mandatory by GOD.
You are only arguing against your own strawman that you created.

And I want those readers who are just passing by , just watch how these Christians fail to step up to their beliefs when asked for biblical proof. How they squirm away from it.

ROLF!
Just more of your strawman attack, since no one here believes that Dec 25th was the birthdate of Christ, nor does anyone here believe that GOD ordained it as a holy holiday that should be celebrated.

But it's been highly entertaining to watch you wrestle with a strawman!
Don't hurt yourself.

 

[meshak]

Mickiel,

IMO,

Most churches are engaging in some kind of unbiblical teachings. That's why I don't belong to any organization or groups. They are not all the same.

we all will be judged according to what we spread or practice.

No one is perfect but I strive to eliminate clear sinful practice or teachings. If you are in the organization, you have to agree with all what they believe or teach. Otherwise you are being dishonest.