Dozer's Fixation on Rape!

[ok doser]

No, doser. I'm not going to ban him. He's done nothing wrong.

awww



no fair

 

[glorydaz]

IF rape was a reasonable response for men, then all men would be committing rape. However, most do not. Why do you suppose that is?

For the same reason not all women are dancing like sluts in a bar.

 

[glorydaz]

I was going to stay out of this discussion. But, people are honestly reading something in doser's, glorydaz's, and genuineoriginal's posts that just isn't there. None of them are saying, "The rape victim is totally responsible for being raped, so let's not blame the man/men who raped her." As a rape victim, even I can see that. They are saying that, in some cases, the victim needs to realize that her behavior choices can lead to rape. And, they are right. This takes absolutely no blame away from the rapist. He chose to rape her. He is guilty of that.

I can tell you that, in my own case, I made some bad decisions the night I was raped. I decided to drink heavily (to the point of forgetting where I was). I decided to get high. I decided to be the only woman hanging out with a group of men who were drinking and getting high. I'm not saying that it's my decision that I was raped. But, I do accept that if I hadn't acted the way I had, I probably wouldn't have been raped. My actions do nothing to take away the guilt of the guys who raped me. My realization of this came several years after I was raped. I changed the way I behaved. I no longer drink or do drugs. And, the only time I hang around a group of men is if I'm in a situation where there are the same number of women with them. I'm more vigilant when I'm in a mixed gender situation. In other words, I learned to become responsible for my own actions. Guess what. I've never been raped since.

Like doser, glorydaz, and genuineoriginal, I believe that our society is responsible for producing rapists and rape victims. We've raised our young men to believe that if it feels good they should do whatever they want. In our rush to show that women are equal and need no protection from anyone, we've raised our daughters to believe that no matter what they do, all they have to do is say no and no harm will come to them. We're taking away from women by saying that she holds no responsibility for her own behavior choices. We're taking away from women by saying that they're not capable of saying no if they are drunk or high. We take away from society, in general, because we mollycoddle our youth, excusing their bad behavior choices by saying, "All kids go through this. We may as well face it." As it stands today, the death penalty has no bite to it because we allow inmates to appeal for twenty years or more before they are executed for their crimes. And, we sanitize that by executing them in a clinical setting. And, now, we are making the cops the bad guys for doing their jobs. I hate to think of what this society will be like for my grandchildren, should I ever have any.

Whoa. That should be framed and put on the wall. :first:

 

[Quincy]

No. I've been reading all of his threads (and others' threads) on this subject because of my past. He just hasn't said what people are saying he said.

The issue isn't with them saying that you'll get bitten if you go into a wolves den. That is a valid point. The issue is, that they're labeling victims as accomplices to the their own rape. Rape being a crime that once carried capital punishment, even. So, if a woman is partly responsible because she knows or should at least know that going to a frat party will result in her rape, shouldn't she also be prosecuted for there to be fair justice? If she is indeed partly responsible? This is the core of what they are saying and trying to dance around so eloquently.

Anyways, that will never be a thing. I'm no longer going to try to get them to admit it or see it (if by some slim chance they don't realize it) . It's not like the greater extent of this conversation affects anything in the long run other than the morale of people discussing this and I hope people let it go.

 

[Quetzal]

The issue isn't with them saying that you'll get bitten if you go into a wolves den. That is a valid point. The issue is, that they're labeling victims as accomplices to the their own rape. Rape being a crime that once carried capital punishment, even. So, if a woman is partly responsible because she knows or should at least know that going to a frat party will result in her rape, shouldn't she also be prosecuted for there to be fair justice? If she is indeed partly responsible? This is the core of what they are saying and trying to dance around so eloquently.

Anyways, that will never be a thing. I'm no longer going to try to get them to admit it or see it (if by some slim chance they don't realize it) . It's not like the greater extent of this conversation affects anything in the long run other than the morale of people discussing this and I hope people let it go.

Further, if a woman feels any sort of blame on herself, I would be willing to wager that she is less likely to press charges.

 

[Granite]

Further, if a woman feels any sort of blame on herself, I would be willing to wager that she is less likely to press charges.

I've never understood what these apologists actually want or hope to achieve other than a sense of moral superiority. If they favor executing rapists but still want to shame the victim, why bother shaming the victim?

 

[ebenz47037]

You don't know that and it certainly doesn't excuse their actions.

Put it this way: if I hadn't been drunk and high, I would have been more aware of my situation and what was going on. And, I would have been less likely to allow myself in the situation if I had been sober.

Look. If I wanted to take all responsibility away from myself, I could blame my mom for my drinking and drug use because I was trying to escape the pain of remembering my abusive childhood. But, I don't do that because I made the choice to drink and use drugs. I can't blame the guys I was with for my drunkenness or my being high. They didn't give me the alcohol or the drugs. In this situation, I blame them for their actions and take responsibility for my own.

And many of us have responded positively to the idea that there are crimes out there where that might apply. We are just not convinced rape is one of them.

For the most part, I agree with you. But, there are times when a woman can make decisions that may keep her from being raped.

 

[Quetzal]

I've never understood what these apologists actually want or hope to achieve other than a sense of moral superiority. If they favor executing rapists but still want to shame the victim, why bother shaming the victim?

I do remember specifically asking Doser what his main purpose to this discussion was. I never did get a direct, human answer from him.

 

[Granite]

I do remember specifically asking Doser what his main purpose to this discussion was. I never did get a direct, human answer from him.

First mistake is assuming you'll get just that.:chuckle:

 

[Quetzal]

Put it this way: if I hadn't been drunk and high, I would have been more aware of my situation and what was going on. And, I would have been less likely to allow myself in the situation if I had been sober.

Look. If I wanted to take all responsibility away from myself, I could blame my mom for my drinking and drug use because I was trying to escape the pain of remembering my abusive childhood. But, I don't do that because I made the choice to drink and use drugs. I can't blame the guys I was with for my drunkenness or my being high. They didn't give me the alcohol or the drugs. In this situation, I blame them for their actions and take responsibility for my own.

This separation is what I am getting at. It is your responsibility that were drunk. It is your responsibility that you were high. It is not your responsibility that you were raped. While all of these events are related in a very broad sense, the individual actions and responsibility for each is important.

At any rate, we have each made our points, but we may just have to agree to disagree here.

 

[ClimateSanity]

It's too simple to be seen when emotions are ruling the roost. This, however, is THE POINT.


That and we live in a world filled with sin. Surely we can understand that bad behavior, of any kind, whether that of the man or the woman, should NEVER be called good. Surely we are not so blinded by the god of this world that we call that girl's actions in the video "good". There is plenty of evil in that bar, and I'm shocked that hers is being ignored because she happened to suffer the consequences for her actions. Those boys didn't jump on her out of the dark while she was walking down the street. She is NOT without FAULT. Amazing. :nono:

Isaiah 5:20
Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!​

How this goes over peoples heads is beyond me.

 

[Rusha]

Further, if a woman feels any sort of blame on herself, I would be willing to wager that she is less likely to press charges.

Bingo.

What happens then? A rapists is free to rape again. And possibly again. The one woman who DOES step forward can carry the blame that the other VICTIMS will not be burdened with.

Why would she blame herself for what something real men would never do?

Because regardless of how much the words "liberal" and "responsibility" are tossed about, there needs to be a loophole that will allow for boys to be boys. So much for responsibility, eh? Rapists have a pure heart until one day a woman causes them to falter.

 

[Rusha]

I've never understood what these apologists actually want or hope to achieve other than a sense of moral superiority. If they favor executing rapists but still want to shame the victim, why bother shaming the victim?

Good question.

 

[bybee]

I was going to stay out of this discussion. But, people are honestly reading something in doser's, glorydaz's, and genuineoriginal's posts that just isn't there. None of them are saying, "The rape victim is totally responsible for being raped, so let's not blame the man/men who raped her." As a rape victim, even I can see that. They are saying that, in some cases, the victim needs to realize that her behavior choices can lead to rape. And, they are right. This takes absolutely no blame away from the rapist. He chose to rape her. He is guilty of that.

I can tell you that, in my own case, I made some bad decisions the night I was raped. I decided to drink heavily (to the point of forgetting where I was). I decided to get high. I decided to be the only woman hanging out with a group of men who were drinking and getting high. I'm not saying that it's my decision that I was raped. But, I do accept that if I hadn't acted the way I had, I probably wouldn't have been raped. My actions do nothing to take away the guilt of the guys who raped me. My realization of this came several years after I was raped. I changed the way I behaved. I no longer drink or do drugs. And, the only time I hang around a group of men is if I'm in a situation where there are the same number of women with them. I'm more vigilant when I'm in a mixed gender situation. In other words, I learned to become responsible for my own actions. Guess what. I've never been raped since.

Like doser, glorydaz, and genuineoriginal, I believe that our society is responsible for producing rapists and rape victims. We've raised our young men to believe that if it feels good they should do whatever they want. In our rush to show that women are equal and need no protection from anyone, we've raised our daughters to believe that no matter what they do, all they have to do is say no and no harm will come to them. We're taking away from women by saying that she holds no responsibility for her own behavior choices. We're taking away from women by saying that they're not capable of saying no if they are drunk or high. We take away from society, in general, because we mollycoddle our youth, excusing their bad behavior choices by saying, "All kids go through this. We may as well face it." As it stands today, the death penalty has no bite to it because we allow inmates to appeal for twenty years or more before they are executed for their crimes. And, we sanitize that by executing them in a clinical setting. And, now, we are making the cops the bad guys for doing their jobs. I hate to think of what this society will be like for my grandchildren, should I ever have any.

Allow me to speak for the other side. We do not deny that foolish or willfully dangerous behavior may cause us to suffer harm. I have stated that each person is responsible for his/her own behavior.'I take issue with the idea that putting oneself in an unsafe place will automatically result in rape because men cannot be expected to control themselves. Most rapes occur because a rapist decided to rape someone, a baby, a girl, a woman and old woman even a corpse! also a boy, a young lad another man. Rape is far more pervasive than the action of a female placing herself in a dangerous situation. The tone of dozer's threads and comments is to persuade us that the rapist is not totally responsible for his behavior. Let us blame a stupid, drunken slut for enticing him. Let us blame society for the lowering of morals. This tends to dilute the focus from a heinous crime has been committed to Yes a crime has been committed but the victim brought it on herself. Yes punish the rapist but let all of us good Christians rub the victims nose in her own dirty linen.
It makes me sick and consider no longer calling myself a christian.
I am a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ and seek to emulate his loving, forgiving, healing behavior.

 

[ebenz47037]

This separation is what I am getting at. It is your responsibility that were drunk. It is your responsibility that you were high. It is not your responsibility that you were raped. While all of these events are related, the individual actions and responsibility for each is important.

At any rate, we have each made our points, but we may just have to agree to disagree here.

And, you just repeated what I said in my original post. It isn't my responsibility that I was raped. That belongs solely to the men who raped me. But, like I said, it is my responsibility for putting myself in the position I was in. And, if people (yourself included) can't understand that, I guess you're right about agreeing to disagree. In my opinion (30 years after being raped), if I hadn't decided to get drunk or high, I wouldn't have been raped that night. It took me five years to get over being afraid of men after that, although I didn't realize that I was afraid of men until after my first husband beat and then divorced me. It took me almost three years to trust my dad and my step-father after him. And, then another year before I met Steve (my late husband). It took me a year to be able to trust him.

 

[Quetzal]

And, you just repeated what I said in my original post. It isn't my responsibility that I was raped. That belongs solely to the men who raped me. But, like I said, it is my responsibility for putting myself in the position I was in. And, if people (yourself included) can't understand that, I guess you're right about agreeing to disagree. In my opinion (30 years after being raped), if I hadn't decided to get drunk or high, I wouldn't have been raped that night. It took me five years to get over being afraid of men after that, although I didn't realize that I was afraid of men until after my first husband beat and then divorced me. It took me almost three years to trust my dad and my step-father after him. And, then another year before I met Steve (my late husband). It took me a year to be able to trust him.

I believe that is a faulty line of reasoning.

 

[ok doser]

I've never understood what these apologists actually want or hope to achieve other than a sense of moral superiority. If they favor executing rapists but still want to shame the victim, why bother shaming the victim?

:noway:

i spose it was inevitable - granite actually came up with a good question

why bother shaming the victim?

if the victim's behavior was shameful, why not bother shaming the victim?

why ignore shameful behavior?

 

[Tambora]

It isn't my responsibility that I was raped. That belongs solely to the men who raped me.

Right.
You did not ask for it.
You did not deserve it.
You should not be blamed for it.

 

[Quetzal]

:noway:

i spose it was inevitable - granite actually came up with a good question

why bother shaming the victim?

if the victim's behavior was shameful, why not bother shaming the victim?

why ignore shameful behavior?

This post coming from doser isn't surprising... just disappointing.

 

[ebenz47037]

Allow me to speak for the other side. We do not deny that foolish or willfully dangerous behavior may cause us to suffer harm. I have stated that each person is responsible for his/her own behavior.'I take issue with the idea that putting oneself in an unsafe place will automatically result in rape because men cannot be expected to control themselves. Most rapes occur because a rapist decided to rape someone, a baby, a girl, a woman and old woman even a corpse! also a boy, a young lad another man. Rape is far more pervasive than the action of a female placing herself in a dangerous situation. The tone of dozer's threads and comments is to persuade us that the rapist is not totally responsible for his behavior. Let us blame a stupid, drunken slut for enticing him. Let us blame society for the lowering of morals. This tends to dilute the focus from a heinous crime has been committed to Yes a crime has been committed but the victim brought it on herself. Yes punish the rapist but let all of us good Christians rub the victims nose in her own dirty linen.
It makes me sick and consider no longer calling myself a christian.
I am a follower of my Lord Jesus Christ and seek to emulate his loving, forgiving, healing behavior.

Bybee, doser didn't say that at all. He said that a woman's actions can lead to her being raped, not that her actions would lead to her being raped. The only person I saw saying that was glorydaz with her example of the stripper.

Do you honestly believe that others' behavior/opinions should sway your own faith in Christ? I don't. If I did, I would have given up my faith right after I was raped (one of the guys who raped me was waiting to get called to be a priest) or after Steve died. Or, I would never have become a Christian because my mom, while claiming to be a Christian, burned me with cigarettes, beat me with wire coat hangers, moved in with her boyfriend while leaving a 5 lb bag of potatoes, a 2 lb bag of beans, a loaf of bread, a jar of peanut butter, a box of cereal, and a gallon of milk to feed her three teenage daughters for two weeks. I hate to imagine my life if I had allowed other people's behavior/opinions cause me to not follow Christ.