oatmeal
Well-known member
What does that mean?
Did Christ know He was fully God?
- Thread starter glorydaz
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What does that mean?
oatmeal
Well-known member
Show me!
Jesus knew he was God ... Anyone who knew the OT scripture know this to be God's own words:
Isaiah 43:11 "I (God), even I, am the LORD and beside me there is no Savior."
IOW, The LORD God said he was to come as the Savior.
Jesus later said: When you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father of Israel being The LORD God. Now there are some nuances to their being equal ... because Jesus said that only the Father knows the exact time for the end of all things.
I'll just say this: There is a slight difference between God the invisible Spirit and The Father and the Son. That's all I will say because I am still working on a book.
Isaiah 43:11 "I (God), even I, am the LORD and beside me there is no Savior."
IOW, The LORD God said he was to come as the Savior.
Jesus later said: When you have seen me you have seen the Father. The Father of Israel being The LORD God. Now there are some nuances to their being equal ... because Jesus said that only the Father knows the exact time for the end of all things.
I'll just say this: There is a slight difference between God the invisible Spirit and The Father and the Son. That's all I will say because I am still working on a book.
When Jesus told his accusers that God was his Father they understood what that meant. Here are some references to check out:
John 5:17-19; John 8:19; John 10:34-39
Compare John 10:34-39 with Ps 82 ... you should be able to find the Son of God present ... if only within the worlds of the Father God Almighty. The Father gave a command to his Son in Ps 82.
You can say that but billions of Christians see what I see. Perhaps you are projecting your own blindness onto others?
Popularity does make what is true.
Jesus says narrow is the way to life.
You are in the wide road.
oatmeal
Well-known member
John 10:34 -39 tells us that God refers to those "unto whom the word of God came" gods
So unto whom did the word of God come?
The word of God came to Noah, God spoke words to Noah
The word of God came to Abraham and Isaac and Jacob, for God spoke His words to them
The word of God came to Moses and all the rest of the prophets and apostles... for God spoke or revealed His words to them
The word of God came to the children of Israel for the God made those words known to the prophets who in turn spoke those words unto the children of Israel.
Unto whom the word of God came
Who are those unto whom the word of God came? God calls them gods.
Thus if the accusers thought that was blasphemy or some such sin, they were were ignorant of scripture, Jesus Christ did not claim to be God, he claimed to be the son of God.
A son does have some equality with his father. But not in all things
A father is older than his son. Thus we know that Jesus is younger than his father
Unrelated to his identity as The Son of God.
Did Gabriel come down from heaven or was he invented just to tell to Mary? Where did Gabriel Go? Where did Satan live? Does Satan have an apartment in Minisota or does he live in heaven?
Maybe if The Son of Man had you representing him at his trial you could have explained all the misunderstanding he caused with his apparent poor communication skills?
Public defender Oatmeal: "oh gosh no your honor, when my client said "before Abraham was I AM", he meant something much different. He meant that he was just an idea in Gods head before the world was made.
Ciafus: "the defendant compared himself with God, making him equal to the Father"?
Defender Oatmeal: " oh, no, no, no, your honor. We know how this sounds, but the scripture says all of us are Gods so, we are all "God the Fathers" to. Again my client was always being misunderstood. In fact everything my client said was normal, everyday stuff but for his unfortunate choice of words.
Funny how you conveniently leave out the verses immediately prior to John 10:34-39.
Specifically this one:
The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” - John 10:33 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:33&version=NKJV
The Jews were about to stone Jesus out of blasphemy, not because of anything He was doing, but because he was claiming to be God. If He was not God, then why did he not correct them?
Jesus is either a liar, a lunatic, or He is LORD.
If the Jews were right in their pursuit of stoning Him for blasphemy (in that his claims of being God were wrong), then that makes Him a liar, and He should have been stoned, and rightly so.
If Jesus was just some nutcase gone off the deep end, he's a lunatic.
But if He is LORD, then the Jews that wanted to stone Him were attepting to do so because they didn't want to believe.
Nope, trinity believers are majority of Christian faith.
oatmeal
Well-known member
Your humor is noteworthy, but keep your day job.
If this was about humor, you get an A+++
However, the obsession of Jesus Christ's enemies was to kill him.
What ever Jesus said, they wanted to find "legal" reason to have him destroyed.
It didn't matter to them if their "evidence" was fabricated or not, they wanted to destroy him.
The were hell bent on destroying him. Do you really think they cared about the truth?
oatmeal
Well-known member
I did not leave that out, actually I am glad you brought that up
They also accused him of breaking the sabbath, do you think Jesus fulfilled all the law by breaking the sabbath?
Let's read the verse again, because apparently you missed it:
The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.” - John 10:33 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:33&version=NKJV
In fact, looking at the context, they don't even mention keeping the sabbath, so it can't be the reason they wanted to stone Him in this passage.
Spoiler
Oatmeal, It's dishonest at best to claim scripture is claiming something when it doesn't mention it at all. At worst it's heresy.
In this passage, the Jews are not attempting to stone Jesus because He didn't keep the Sabbath.
They're attempting to stone Him because He is claiming to be God.
oatmeal
Well-known member
What blasphemy did Jesus commit? None. He did not claim to be God, he claimed to be the son of God!
Son of God does not mean he is God.
Evidently, his accusers had potatoes stuck in their ears!
If you look at Jesus' response, it is not uncommon in scripture for God to refer to men as gods.
Thus I don't know why, if their accusation has any actual basis, they would object to a human being referred to as god.
Do I need to list scriptures that show that? I am sure you are fully capable of finding them in scripture, even in the context of this discussion.
For God to refer to a human as god is one thing God does to signify the ministerial role of that human in relationship to the God they serve.
Exodus 7:1 KJV is one such passage, Psalm 82 is another, there are others that do not show up in the KJV,but the Hebrews word is elohim in reference to humans
As for Jesus Christ being accused of breaking the sabbath, that happened many a time
I am surprised you would not know that.
One particular passage often discussed in the context of who Jesus Christ is is
John 5:18
Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God.
So in this context of who Jesus Christ is, the subject of the validity of the accusations against Jesus Christ is paramount as is what the motives and character of his accusers.
They wanted Jesus dead, willing to suborn men to bear false witness against him so as to have "reason" to murder him.
You actually use the testimony of people plotting to murder Jesus Christ as support for your "truth"?
As for your statement
I find that particularly amusing, even laughable
Jesus Christ was accused of breaking the sabbath many a time, but not in this context as you point out correctly.
It is those accusers of his those who sought to murder him, who you believe to have told the truth about what Jesus meant
Likewise claiming
is laughable coming out of the mouth of advocates of the trinitarian doctrine
Could you show me where the words or phrases, "God the Son, fully God/fully man, Godman, triune, trinity, mother of God, etc," are found in scripture?
I will leave you and your trinitarian buddies to ask God for forgiveness for violating what you correctly say is heresy!!!
God shall forgive you, please do not do anything reckless like Judas did or the enemies of Jesus Christ did
Those who heard Jesus disagree with your distorted hind sight rationalization. Jesus meant what he said and it wasn't blasphemy because what he said was true. To the Jews it was blasphemy because in Judaism God didn't have a Son in heaven like we have now.
God is not an old man with a long white beard with a sonny boy in heaven always sitting on a throne.
When people insist God is like a human person, I have to ask then how did He get old in the first place, did God age?
Why would they be eternally siting on a throne, wouldn't that get boring?
Why would people care to go to heaven, if all they did for eternity is worship God and His son.
You see, to explain to very simple primitive people God had to make use of analogy and metaphor.
To understand the Bible one has to know why what is said is said to those who heard it first.
Jesus came to us the way He did for divine reasons. He could have just said, "hello, I am God" Then, when they laughed and called Him crazy, He could have said, " alright watch this!" Then He could have taken the whole Roman empire and sent it into the sky, then crushed it in a little hamburger and ate it. Then people would have been terrified and worshiped Him in fear. He did not want to rule men in fear , but be loved in their hearts.
According to the Jews, it does.
So you're not going to trust what scripture blatantly says?
It's also not very common for Jesus to call Himself God. But He also doesn't ever rebuke those who call Him God.
And I don't see any rebuke of their accusation of Him of Him calling Himself God.
How about because He, a man (according to them), was making Himself God. And committing blasphemy.
Nope.
And yet, none of that has any bearing on this passage. The Sabbath isn't even mentioned.
Trying to get away from the discussion about John 10:33? No, not happening.
Which, again, has nothing to do with the passage in John 10 that we're discussing.
Oatsy, who is equal with God? Anyone?
Hey, I can't help that even a broken clock is right twice a day.
God has already forgiven me, and it was more than sufficient for all my sins.