Creation vs. Evolution

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6days

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Once again, your ignorance of physics is (again) noted and acknowledged. Please, learn some physics, then get back to me.
Your metaphysical beliefs have nothing to do with physics.
Believing everything came from nothing is pseudoscience magic. Physicists who claim such a thing are not only fools but they are dishonest. People who believe such nonsense are simply gullible.
 

DavisBJ

New member
Your metaphysical beliefs have nothing to do with physics.
Believing everything came from nothing is pseudoscience magic. Physicists who claim such a thing are not only fools but they are dishonest. People who believe such nonsense are simply gullible.
I guess you think that essentially repeating what you have already said a couple of times will convince somebody. There is no technical substance in your complaint; it is not much more than an “I just don’t believe it” argument.

Similar sentiments have been previously levied against other aspects of science. Rather than engaging in a debate with you on something that you apparently have very limited knowledge of, I think my efforts can better be spent in more productive ways. If you ever actually develop some depth of understanding of the relevant physics, or even can present a cogent technical argument, then let me know. Till such time, I grant the full stage to you alone.
 

6days

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I guess you think that essentially repeating what you have already said a couple of times will convince somebody. There is no technical substance in your complaint; it is not much more than an “I just don’t believe it” argument.
Your are the one who keeps repeating your beliefs. Repeating that physics...or some physicists state everything came from nothing is pseudoscience. Physics shows us that everything has a cause. (Even quantum vacuums)
 

iouae

Well-known member
26 There go the ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein. [ancient biome with giant animals such as dinosaurs, plesiosaurus][with ships!!!!!!!]


First off, it's my e-sword software that gives the definition that leviathan could be referring to plesiosaurus.

Presumably it lived in the seas, where ships [today] go.

Or the Psalmist might have been likening it to a "ship". The Hebrew has no quote marks to show comparison/metaphor, but is the Bible not full of metaphor?

I'm not sure how you can equate fossilization with returning to dust. Unless they were fossilized before they were created and then they fossilized after they died.


Don't give arguments that shoot yourself in the foot.
When one says "dust to dust, ashes to ashes" do we mean you start out and end up the same? Do you realise how silly your point sounds?

I guess it could be talking about a great cataclysm--after ships and leviathan shared the seas, perhaps (either that or the ships and leviathan share the seas in the day of the psalmist, which seems more likely to me from the text). We certainly know of a great cataclysm in Genesis that required renewal of the order of earth starting from when the waters were above the mountains. Do you need another one?

I tried highlighting the word "renew" in Ps 104:30.

Apparently that giant font and blue colour were not highlights enough for you to notice.

That word means exactly that. "Make right again something that was already there". Do a Hebrew check of that word.

And combine it with "send forth Your Spirit" - we see the Spirit specifically sent only in Gen 1:2, not after the flood.

Thus pointing specifically back to events in Gen 1, calling these a renewal of earth.

As for the "heavens" being plural in Exodus 20:11.
The Hebrew word for heaven(s) singular and plural is "Shamayim". Like the word for sheep is both singular and plural.

And I am sure that on Day 4 God tweaked the heavens so that the month was exactly 30 days long which seems to be where we get prophetic months from and 360 degrees in a circle. And on the 1st day God cleared the skies, and on the 6th He made birds to fly in the heavens. So 1st, 4th and 6th are heavens related days of renewing.

I have shown you how Gen 1 seems to be referring to a renewal, not first creation of earth.

If you and 6days and Michael and others want to keep on insisting that the cosmos and earth are only 6000 years old, and in so doing show utter contempt for science (good science), then carry on making yourselves look igorant.

But don't insist that the Bible says the cosmos is only 6000 years old. That is only your INTERPRETATION of scripture, just as evolution is only the atheists INTERPRETATION of the fossil record.
 
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MichaelCadry

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Dear Michael,

Others and myself have pointed out to you in the past that posting such hideous collections of self-deluding nonsense just reflects very poorly on you. Please consider a different, more constructive, approach in the future.

Because, evidently, if you must deliberately lie and spread blatant slander in order to support your position, maybe it's time to realize that you've already lost to yourself, if you don't even know how else to remain convinced that you're right.

Cheers


Dear TheDuke,

I think you and DavisBJ just don't like to face it when you see an unnerving document staring you in the face.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
“The diamond district of New York City can trace its origins to the centuries-old Hasidic Jewish community originating from Antwerp, Belgium, and other areas of Eastern Europe. Jews have had an exclusive and unique relationship with the diamond industry since the 15th century, when European Jews were given limited choices in occupation. Since the church condemned the handling of goods and money, working in the diamond industry was one of the few options available to the Jewish people.

When Jews were expelled from Spain and Portugal in 1492 and 1497 respectively, many of them fled to what is today Belgium. Continuing persecution of Jews in Eastern Europe led to an ever increasing Jewish population in Antwerp. However, when the Holocaust struck, the diamond hub of Antwerp would never again be the same. In 1940, 30,000 Jews were lost in Antwerp alone. Jewish refugees who made it to the United States often arrived with few possessions, but with a rich understanding of the diamond industry.

Today, the children and grandchildren of these immigrants are extending their family legacy on 47th Street. This block between 5th and 6th Avenue is a vision of bustling Black Hats mumbling in Yiddish. With more careful observation, you may catch sight of a handshake or two, very likely to be over a diamond exchange. These handshakes are built on a trust that is unique to this inherently insular religious community. This trust is the mechanism that facilitates the credit-based exchanges in the diamond industry.

The New York Times has called this trust-based exchange, “the real treasure of 47th Street.” The element of trust in this Ultra-Orthodox community derives from their pronounced emphasis on reputation, propelled by the adherence to the Jewish laws against gossip – with the exception of necessity and helpful information. Such stipulations discourage the exchange of aimless and inaccurate information. Therefore, any gossip that does occur may be extremely damaging to one’s reputation and could easily lead to expulsion from both the community and business.

One of those grandchildren of Jewish immigrants, Philip Weisner, stands out in this austere crowd, sporting brightly colored shirts and scuffed jeans. He embraces the secular nature of his Judaism, yet has managed to build a trust-worthy reputation in the diamond district. Today he is able to sit comfortably in his store on 582 5th Avenue, Kestenbaum & Weisner, behind a desk covered in a hectic assortment of papers, a diamond loupe, some loose diamonds, and a scale to weigh carats. However, reaching this spot on 5th Avenue was not a comfortable journey.

It all began with Philip’s mother, Ella, who was living in the Netherlands when the Nazis invaded. As Philip explains, “the Germans were coming house by house taking the Jews out.” Despite such forlorn circumstances, Ella was hopeful, determined, and fortunate to have a mother who was an American citizen. Philip recounts that “they were literally able to escape through the streets carrying their 48-star American flag to get out of the town.” They were able to make their way to Portugal, into Lisbon and onto boats headed to America.

Philip’s father, Henri Michael, grew up in Antwerp, Belgium, part of a long family line of diamond cutters. In 1940, when the war started brewing, Henri immigrated to Cuba as a diamond cutter, and became successful enough to run diamond factories of his own. From here he was able to reach the United States, where he met Ella. Their meeting was serendipity, as Philip explains: “Both sides of my family were diamond cutters and immigrants that came during the war, but they came from very different paths and met each other here coincidentally.”

Ella and Henri Michael arrived here, like many others, with nothing but their values and principles. They had big dreams that were realized on one small block: 47th Street. Philip has known the community and culture of this block since he could form memories. He sighs to say, “It is my blood; it is my fabric, whether I like it or not.”

Philip began working in the industry 34 years ago, on the floor of the Diamond Dealer’s Club, an internationally recognized trading floor, running around with diamond parcels in his boots. He steadily gained a reputation for his keen eye for quality, securing a spot in the jewelry exchange that grew until he was able to move into a small store on 47th Street. It was eight years ago when Philip, with determination and work ethic he inherited from his parents, was able to take the rarified opportunity to own a private store on the famed Fifth Avenue. Having come from a family with a dream and then fulfilling his own, Philip is devoted to making his customers’ dreams come true.

He is committed to revitalizing the old-time relationship a customer once had with his jeweler. He holds onto his Jewish values such as closing on major Jewish holidays, kinship and storytelling.

Philip loves telling his story, but lives for hearing the stories of each customer that walks into the store.

Today, the landscape of 47th Street has been shaped by new waves of immigrants. Many of the Jewish immigrants that began as brokers and cutters have shifted to roles of storeowners. These brick and mortar storeowners are here to stay as long as we have the need for human connection. Each of them has a story of how their family made their way over here with very little.

Recently graduated from Binghamton University with a BA in Judaic Studies and Psychology. Originally from Boston, MA and currently living in Manhattan and working in the Diamond District."



Dear patrick jane,

Wow, that was long! I see what you mean though. I used to live in Manhattan back in 77-78 and used to walk by all of the diamond stores. I worked at ABC-TV at the time {on Avenue of the Americas}. I lived on 51st St. Just south of Broadway. {Near Studio 54}. I lived there for six mos., then moved onto Staten Island, NYC. for six more mos. I worked at CBS-TV also, and the UN, for a short stint. I could never afford any diamonds, so I didn't really look in their windows much. It was all some other world that I was not part of.

Well, thanks for that ride down memory lane. NY winters are awful, especially on Staten Island!! {Because it's surrounded by water}.

May God Always Be Nearby,

Michael

:angel: :angel: :angel: :rapture: :cloud9: :cloud9:
 

MichaelCadry

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LIFETIME MEMBER
No, we have come a long way towards showing that is not magic at all. Magic is when someone names a pile of mud “Adam” and then utters an incantation which causes the mud to turn into a walking, talking daddy.


Dear DavisBJ,

You love to wallow in the mud, don't you?? God used Great Chemistry to make a man out of the dirt. Jesus said, "God is able to raise children up to Abraham from these rocks." And He wasn't joking. God used the elements and minerals in them to form man and woman. Your brain sounds like you got it muddied yourself. But overall, you are a nice person to know!!

Warmest Wishes,

Michael

:angrymob:
 
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MichaelCadry

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LIFETIME MEMBER
Indeed... that would be magic!
However, if a supreme intelligence could created us / humans that way....that Being would be worthy of our worship.

Magic is more like the belief that nothing caused everything and life came from non life.


Dear 6days,

Now, that sounds like "intelligent" thinking. {Take note, BJ}. Hey it's nice to cross paths for a change. I see some of the questions coming your way and you can definitely handle your own. That is commendable. You know, sometimes I want to just quit this thread, but it turns out I end up continuing onward. This thread is going to have to have half of it archived. It is growing too big. I am waiting, thinking on it. Plus, I will need Knight's help to do that. We'll see what happens.

Well, 6days, enjoy the Christmas Spirit during the Holidays and make it all count!! Might as well enjoy it as not!

Tons Of Love Coming Your Way!!!

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Now a supreme intelligence? Then why did not this supreme intelligence know his creation would sin right away? Continue to sin thereby angering this supreme intelligence such that he caused a world wide flood that killed almost every living thing?
And why did the supreme intelligence set up the natural world such that his creation would try to understand it and that understanding would conflict with the Holy Book he left.
Sorry, that particular intelligence does not seem so supreme to me.


Dear Jonahdog,

He knew that man would sin. If Adam and Eve never ate the fruit, how would we ever get to the day when His Son Jesus, would be crucified on a cross and life again to Save Us. You are so small-minded, that you think to match wits with God?? God also dramatically had the Great Flood to give an ominous message to mankind to not Sin. To teach man into the way he should go. The 2nd Coming, which will be soon, was planned by God thousands of years ago. Roughly 2-3,000 years ago. 2,000 years ago, Jesus spoke of it, and it was written of in the Old Testament a few hundred years or more before that. You don't know diddly squat, Jonah. Use two ears to quiet one mouth.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

LIFETIME MEMBER
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A bit of a non response to my post. Your god showed himself by killing untold numbers in a big flood and making the universe appear billions of years old yet requiring his faithful to believe it is about 6000 years old?

Wow.


Dear Jonahdog,

It is ALL part of God's Plan for us. You couldn't match wits with Him even if you tried. His Ways are higher than yours.

Michael
 

MichaelCadry

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Physicists long ago learned that it is folly to demand that the laws that seem obvious to us in daily life are the same as those that apply in situations far removed from daily life. If that offends your sense of what seems logical, nature just doesn’t care. The fool is the person that thinks nature must obey their intuition. Sorry bout that.


Dear Davis,

Nonplussed?? Bewildered?? At a loss for words?? Cop-out?

What a rebuttal.

The Very Best For You!!

Michael
 

Jonahdog

BANNED
Banned
Dear Jonahdog,

It is ALL part of God's Plan for us. You couldn't match wits with Him even if you tried. His Ways are higher than yours.

Michael
Interesting theology. Shows a god who apparently needs the worship and adoration of his creation. Not a very self sufficient god.
 

6days

New member
iouae said:
There go the*ships: there is that leviathan, whom thou hast made to play therein. [ancient biome with giant animals such as dinosaurs, plesiosaurus(Psalm 105:26)

First off, it's my e-sword software that gives the definition that leviathan could be referring to plesiosaurus.
Presumably it lived in the seas, where ships [today] go.
People who try insert long ages into scripture come up with all kinds of ideas to make it say anything other than the obvious.*

iouae said:
Or the Psalmist might have been likening it to a "ship". The Hebrew has no quote marks to show comparison/metaphor, but is the Bible not full of metaphor?
Funny how reasonably intelligent people can read newspapers, magazines, history books etc and have no trouble discerning figures of speech. Yet, they somehow seem very confused reading God's Word, imaging all types of things are just metaphors and not to be believed.*

Iouae... you perform mental gymnastics trying to mesh secular ideas / long ages into scripture.... trying to make scripture say anything other than what the author clearly intended.
 

iouae

Well-known member
People who try insert long ages into scripture come up with all kinds of ideas to make it say anything other than the obvious.*


Funny how reasonably intelligent people can read newspapers, magazines, history books etc and have no trouble discerning figures of speech. Yet, they somehow seem very confused reading God's Word, imaging all types of things are just metaphors and not to be believed.*

Iouae... you perform mental gymnastics trying to mesh secular ideas / long ages into scripture.... trying to make scripture say anything other than what the author clearly intended.

But one thing that I do is RESPECT science :)
 

iouae

Well-known member
I feel it is important to respect some science and disrespect "science" which is not true science.

So how can one tell when science is respectable or not?

Is mathematics with its formulae respectable, and if so why?

Is cosmology respectable, and if so why?

Is being able to control nuclear reactions respectable science, and if so why?

Is electronics and being able to design circuits respectable science, and if so why?

Is being able to land a man on the moon respectable science, and if so why?

Is weather prediction respectable science, and if so why?

Is evolution respectable science, and if so why?

Is domestic science respectable?

Is biology respectable?

Is botany respectable?

Is palaeontology respectable?



What rule is there for determining the respectability of science?
 

patrick jane

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I feel it is important to respect some science and disrespect "science" which is not true science.

So how can one tell when science is respectable or not?

Is mathematics with its formulae respectable, and if so why?

Is cosmology respectable, and if so why?

Is being able to control nuclear reactions respectable science, and if so why?

Is electronics and being able to design circuits respectable science, and if so why?

Is being able to land a man on the moon respectable science, and if so why?

Is weather prediction respectable science, and if so why?

Is evolution respectable science, and if so why?

Is domestic science respectable?

Is biology respectable?

Is botany respectable?

Is palaeontology respectable?



What rule is there for determining the respectability of science?

It's clear that you view life in a Fun House mirror.
 

6days

New member
But one thing that I do is RESPECT science :)

I see otherwise. You don't understand the difference between science and opinions.
You respect secular ideas that force you to compromise on scripture. You reject opinions from scientists who say tell evidence supports the truth of God's Word.... and a perfect creation where death did not exist before man sinned.
 

6days

New member
I feel it is important to respect some science and disrespect "science" which is not true science.

So how can one tell when science is respectable or not?

Is mathematics with its formulae respectable, and if so why?
Is cosmology respectable, and if so why?
Is being able to control nuclear reactions respectable science, and if so why?
Is electronics and being able to design circuits respectable science, and if so why?
Is being able to land a man on the moon respectable science, and if so why?
Is weather prediction respectable science, and if so why?
Is evolution respectable science, and if so why?
Is domestic science respectable?
Is biology respectable?
Is botany respectable?
Is palaeontology respectable?
What rule is there for determining the respectability of science?
Yes. .. to all..EXCEPT weather prediction!
Ha
 

iouae

Well-known member
I see otherwise. You don't understand the difference between science and opinions.
You respect secular ideas that force you to compromise on scripture. You reject opinions from scientists who say tell evidence supports the truth of God's Word.... and a perfect creation where death did not exist before man sinned.

I start with empirical science.

Astronomy shows a billions of years old cosmos from the faint light from distant stars. This is an empirical science fact. I start with this.

Then I see fossils which eat other fossils. The fossil bones show signs of being gnawed. This is an empirical scientific fact that past worlds were just as dog-eat-dog as this world. Same old food chains.

Then I look at the scriptures and see if these can accommodate the absolute truths of an old cosmos, and past worlds of animals eating each other which I know to be true.

Turns out my theology can oblige. The Bible is not focused on science. But what little it says on peripheral subjects is true.

Tell me why you do not believe the sun rises since the Bible says it does?

Numbers 2:3 And on the east side toward the rising of the sun shall they

And when you read the following...

Joshua 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. 13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves...

...do you believe God made the earth stand still, or the sun and moon?

You know that it is an illusion that the sun and moon rise right?

So why do you allow the science you know to be true to modify your understanding of sun and moon rise?
 
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