I feel sorry for you at Christ's bema seat.
Creation vs. Evolution
- Thread starter MichaelCadry
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I feel sorry for you at Christ's bema seat.
I don't know what you are yapping about, since this response is to a post in which I showed how typically vacuous one of the claims creationists make against evolution is.
Mistrust is not necessarily a bad thing. I would hope no one mindlessly buys into what i say, but rather I want people to honestly evaluate the ideas I present for themselves.
Are you saying you are once again thumbing your nose at what the Lord told you to do? The Lord said stay away from this post, but no, not you?
I believe you are probably sincere in a lot of what you say, but that does little to justify your abject refusal to be objective. I find lots of the details about religion and angels and such that you offer fascinating, but not even remotely credible.
You really think He can't find me right now? Oh dear, it sounds like you are the one that has signed on with the wrong team.
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I do too. I've got real work I want to be doing, real things to learn and study. I haven't got time to chit-chat with a God over my penchant to be brutally honest with myself.
Dear Michael,
Others and myself have pointed out to you in the past that posting such hideous collections of self-deluding nonsense just reflects very poorly on you. Please consider a different, more constructive, approach in the future.
Because, evidently, if you must deliberately lie and spread blatant slander in order to support your position, maybe it's time to realize that you've already lost to yourself, if you don't even know how else to remain convinced that you're right.
Cheers
But do you have the depth of understanding required to logically show others why you are right?
No he just spews anti Christian rhetoric with no substance. At least you show depth of thought and research/study.
alwight
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Some Christian fundamentalists don't seem to show any more than a simple opinion, based on what they were raised to believe and not freethinking.
Gold or Diamond or something ending in Stein
“The diamond district of New York City can trace its origins to the centuries-old Hasidic Jewish community originating from Antwerp, Belgium, and other areas of Eastern Europe. Jews have had an exclusive and unique relationship with the diamond industry since the 15th century, when European Jews were given limited choices in occupation. Since the church condemned the handling of goods and money, working in the diamond industry was one of the few options available to the Jewish people.
When Jews were expelled from Spain and Portugal in 1492 and 1497 respectively, many of them fled to what is today Belgium. Continuing persecution of Jews in Eastern Europe led to an ever increasing Jewish population in Antwerp. However, when the Holocaust struck, the diamond hub of Antwerp would never again be the same. In 1940, 30,000 Jews were lost in Antwerp alone. Jewish refugees who made it to the United States often arrived with few possessions, but with a rich understanding of the diamond industry.
Today, the children and grandchildren of these immigrants are extending their family legacy on 47th Street. This block between 5th and 6th Avenue is a vision of bustling Black Hats mumbling in Yiddish. With more careful observation, you may catch sight of a handshake or two, very likely to be over a diamond exchange. These handshakes are built on a trust that is unique to this inherently insular religious community. This trust is the mechanism that facilitates the credit-based exchanges in the diamond industry.
The New York Times has called this trust-based exchange, “the real treasure of 47th Street.” The element of trust in this Ultra-Orthodox community derives from their pronounced emphasis on reputation, propelled by the adherence to the Jewish laws against gossip – with the exception of necessity and helpful information. Such stipulations discourage the exchange of aimless and inaccurate information. Therefore, any gossip that does occur may be extremely damaging to one’s reputation and could easily lead to expulsion from both the community and business.
One of those grandchildren of Jewish immigrants, Philip Weisner, stands out in this austere crowd, sporting brightly colored shirts and scuffed jeans. He embraces the secular nature of his Judaism, yet has managed to build a trust-worthy reputation in the diamond district. Today he is able to sit comfortably in his store on 582 5th Avenue, Kestenbaum & Weisner, behind a desk covered in a hectic assortment of papers, a diamond loupe, some loose diamonds, and a scale to weigh carats. However, reaching this spot on 5th Avenue was not a comfortable journey.
It all began with Philip’s mother, Ella, who was living in the Netherlands when the Nazis invaded. As Philip explains, “the Germans were coming house by house taking the Jews out.” Despite such forlorn circumstances, Ella was hopeful, determined, and fortunate to have a mother who was an American citizen. Philip recounts that “they were literally able to escape through the streets carrying their 48-star American flag to get out of the town.” They were able to make their way to Portugal, into Lisbon and onto boats headed to America.
Philip’s father, Henri Michael, grew up in Antwerp, Belgium, part of a long family line of diamond cutters. In 1940, when the war started brewing, Henri immigrated to Cuba as a diamond cutter, and became successful enough to run diamond factories of his own. From here he was able to reach the United States, where he met Ella. Their meeting was serendipity, as Philip explains: “Both sides of my family were diamond cutters and immigrants that came during the war, but they came from very different paths and met each other here coincidentally.”
Ella and Henri Michael arrived here, like many others, with nothing but their values and principles. They had big dreams that were realized on one small block: 47th Street. Philip has known the community and culture of this block since he could form memories. He sighs to say, “It is my blood; it is my fabric, whether I like it or not.”
Philip began working in the industry 34 years ago, on the floor of the Diamond Dealer’s Club, an internationally recognized trading floor, running around with diamond parcels in his boots. He steadily gained a reputation for his keen eye for quality, securing a spot in the jewelry exchange that grew until he was able to move into a small store on 47th Street. It was eight years ago when Philip, with determination and work ethic he inherited from his parents, was able to take the rarified opportunity to own a private store on the famed Fifth Avenue. Having come from a family with a dream and then fulfilling his own, Philip is devoted to making his customers’ dreams come true.
He is committed to revitalizing the old-time relationship a customer once had with his jeweler. He holds onto his Jewish values such as closing on major Jewish holidays, kinship and storytelling.
Philip loves telling his story, but lives for hearing the stories of each customer that walks into the store.
Today, the landscape of 47th Street has been shaped by new waves of immigrants. Many of the Jewish immigrants that began as brokers and cutters have shifted to roles of storeowners. These brick and mortar storeowners are here to stay as long as we have the need for human connection. Each of them has a story of how their family made their way over here with very little.
Recently graduated from Binghamton University with a BA in Judaic Studies and Psychology. Originally from Boston, MA and currently living in Manhattan and working in the Diamond District."
Let’s see. You provided the quote, but not the source from which it was taken. My sleuthing led to what seems to be the source of that quote at
Dr. Cargill, the author of that article, is “Assistant Professor of Classics and Religious Studies at The University of Iowa”:
Here are his academic qualifications:
A.A. – Fresno City College (Liberal Arts)
B.S. – CSU Fresno (Human Physiology)
M.S. – Pepperdine University (Ministry)
M.Div. – Pepperdine University
M.A. – UCLA (Ancient Near Eastern Civilizations)
Ph.D. – UCLA (Near Eastern Languages and Cultures)
On his website, I see nothing in his professional experience that gives him any particular credentials in evolution, though he says he is a supporter of the idea. He has pretty impressive credentials in things pertinent to Biblical studies, including extensive Mid-East archaeological excavating experience, university teaching of Near Eastern languages, Religions, and Culture.B.S. – CSU Fresno (Human Physiology)
M.S. – Pepperdine University (Ministry)
M.Div. – Pepperdine University
M.A. – UCLA (Ancient Near Eastern Civilizations)
Ph.D. – UCLA (Near Eastern Languages and Cultures)
As to whether he was “mocking the Bible”, here are his own thoughts on that subject:
It is time for Christians to concede that "inspiration" does not equal "inerrancy," and that "biblical" does not equal "historical" or even "factual." Some claims like the flood and the six-day creation are neither historical nor factual; they were written to communicate in an pre-scientific literary form that god is responsible for the earth. It is time Christians conceded that there was no flood.
You choose to disparage someone who sees an important, if not literal, message in Genesis as someone who is “mocking the Bible.”You frequently refer to “evolutionists” who have made incorrect statements, but you completely ignore that the content of their statements has no dependency on the correctness of evolution, and could have been made by anyone. Evolution is a scientific theory dealing with common descent. Astronomers, biologists, creationists, Moslems, atheists, housewives, preachers, drunks, and prostitutes have all made incorrect statements. But often those statements are not representative of the feelings of the entire group, and those same incorrect statements have been made by people completely outside the group.
According to a literal reading of the Noah story, the water did indeed cause a flood – a flood requiring far more water than is known to be in the hydrosphere. No matter how much you try to talk around it, if you want to add that !00% deep water to what is normally meant by groundwater, then you better have a chasm 400 times deeper than the Grand Canyon, and most of that is through intensely hot soft rock under immense pressure. That is what is really silly.
I’ll turn the question back to you. I will give you plenty of water for the flood you want, but it is embedded within the crystal lattices of nearly molten rocks hundreds of miles under the earth. OK, you got your water, now do you think that makes the flood factual?
Creationists love to use the fallacy of equivocation. My objection has never been to the use of the term “evolutionist” for someone who believes in the Theory of Evolution. Under that meaning, I find the Pope, hundreds of thousands of faithful Christians, thousands of Christian pastors, Muslims, Hindus, atheists, psychopaths, child molesters, movie stars, and monarchs. But let’s see if that is really the meaning you intend for that term.
You said: “it was evolutionists who used that (incorrect) figure to mock the Bible as in the quote I provided.”
First, I flatly reject your assertion that questioning the literal truthfulness of a Bible account is “mocking the Bible”.
Secondly, I propose that there were geologists who care squat about evolution who probably also used that figure to question the flood of Noah. And geophysicists. And astronomers. And almost anyone who know of the 1.7% figure, and who had an inkling of the amount of water needed for a global flood. But your wording leaves no hint that literally anyone disbelieving in the flood of Noah could have used the same data. In fact, Dr. Cargill, the person who is the primary source of the quote you used, is far more qualified in theological studies than he is in evolutionary biology.
Thirdly, Dr. Cargill’s article from which your quote was taken was published in 2010. The study you indirectly linked to about the entrapped water deep in the earth came out just last year. No one knew that the 1.7% figure was “incorrect” during the intervening 4-year interval.
Fourth, as it relates to the flood of Noah, until you explain how to get that water to the surface, that entrapped deep water is irrelevant to the flood of Noah. You still got just the 1.7% available underground that is close enough to the surface to be involved in ANY flood.
Fifth, since the 1.7% is almost all within aquifers that often take years to drain, and those aquifers are spread all over the continents, it is silliness to even consider that 1.7% as a potential source of water for the “fountains of the deep”.
Oh really? You recently said: “Bible deniers / evolutionists in the past made statements like …”, as though “Bible deniers” and “evolutionists” were essentially synonymous. You know as well as I do that there are many thousands of faithful Christians who accept evolution - are they Bible deniers? Recently I mentioned a list of thousands of Christian pastors that have signed a list affirming their acceptance of evolution. Your intentional listing of those two terms – “Bible deniers” and “evolutionists” in the same context is nothing short of shallow dishonesty. Later in this post you express a hope that I will be open to the Christian message. You would have been more successful than you might realize except for demonstrating that for you, at least, conducting yourself in conformance with Christian ideals is not very important. You want me in, then first show me that you conduct your life the way a Christian should.
As to “evolution” being the most accurate word in the ways you use it – it is exactly right when your intention is to maximize the discredit against evolution. But in fact it is intentional deception if accurately conveying information is your goal. BTW, is it really true that creationists / child molesters are often less than truthful?
You don’t actually have God’s Word. You have an ancient tribal creation account that you choose to call “God’s Word”.
That claim is pretty much SOP. Both sides in debates among Christians claim it is the opposing side that is compromising on what the Bible says. That is what I like about science – nature doesn’t pay any attention to which scientist claims to be right – it just does what nature does whether we like it or not. You can humble yourself and go along with nature, or you can fail – those are your choices.
I really appreciate your repeated admissions that in fact you do not actually accept whatever the evidence shows, but in fact refuse to accept it if you perceive as conflicting with an ancient Hebrew story. Like many creationists, for you the Bible is absolute truth, and evidence is only acceptable if it supports that pre-defined standard. Amazing that you, just like Cadry, have strung us all along for more than 2 years under the pretense of something that you now admit just ain’t so. Cadry was a great pretender at being a prophet, and you have been a pretender every time you have declared that science supports your beliefs. But now that charade is over.
To be good scientific evidence, evidence must be credible from the viewpoint of an (ideally) impartial scientist. So, I used the exact 3-word phrase you offered in a google search. Of the first 20 hits that Google came up with, 9 were essentially supportive of the Genesis account of a Global flood. Without exception those 9 links avowed an allegiance to Bible correctness. Not one of them even pretended to be impartial in their presentation. Of the remaining 11 sites, their presentations ranged from disavowal of the reality of the flood story to (more commonly) portraying it as a strictly local, if massive, flood. Those sites were far more faithful at presenting their evidence free of theological bias than the sites supporting your position. So I ask again, what (scientifically acceptable) evidence can you offer that “the earth as it existed, was destroyed” in the geologically recent past? I really hope your response includes specific evidence, rather than just another vague allusion to “substantial clear proof” that you seem unable to actually enumerate.
Re: “God’s Word”, I am awaiting your overdue response to a prior post about where an eye witness to the creation personally testified as to what he saw.
Nope.
Why is it that those scientists who are most qualified scientifically are also most likely to dismiss the Biblical Creation account?
Thanks, been there, done that. I did what you ask – I followed the evidence - to exactly where I am. I presume you know that I was an active Christian for decades, and both studied and taught the Bible? Next suggestion?
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Correction to the correction….
I presume you meant to type the word “ignorance”. And if by “geogically distant” you actually meant “geologically distant”, then I am still not understanding you. If you meant “geographically distant”, then from Canada that is probably the southern part of the Indian Ocean (But I don’t know that that has anything to do with what we have been discussing.) If you meant to type “Geologically distant” and were referring to far back in geological time, then as far as science is concerned, you gotta go way way back before the literal Genesis creation.
Correction to the correction.
I didn’t propose a certain amount of water either. I simply used the adjective “huge”, whereas you use the adjective “large”. That give you heart-burn?
The article IS SAYING the massive new amount of water you are so excited about is 400 (or more) miles down. Wasn’t the whole point of that to show a source for enough water to explain the “fountains of the deep”?
Yeah, I recall that bit. So the whole Noah thing not only involved carnivores finally having their teeth and digestive systems retuned to allow them to feast on other animals, but the laws of chemistry and thermodynamics allowing evaporation and atmospheric condensation got revamped, Maxwell’s equations that provide an understanding of rainbows suddenly came into effect, etc., etc. Seems like the pre-flood world of science was purely of the Alice-in-Wonderland variety.
The article is not “merely pointing out” that the scoffers were wrong. The article says:
”In the days of Noah and the Ark, these large pools of water beneath the Earth’s crust burst forth onto the surface providing the massive amounts of water needed for the global flood judgment. What has once been a source of skepticism and mockery for those who doubt the Bible, has now been confirmed by secular scientists…”
The article is pointedly asserting that “these large pools of water” that burst forth is the water found to be within the rocks some 400 miles down.Science has indeed shown that there may be massively more subterranean water than previously realized. The “scoffers” were wrong about the amount of water, but not about the blithering silliness of large amounts of water needed at the surface for the oceans to flood all the land. (And that error about the amount of water was rectified due to new geological data. You remember the bit about accepting evidence? That is called good science. Now 400 miles deep water as an explanation for the fountains of the deep – that is bad science. Sorry.)
What about a warmer period where sea levels were already sky high, coupled with 40 days and nights of torrential rain. Do you realize how fast torrential rain piles up ?
Dear DavisBJ,
Just jumping ahead a bit here and I saw this post of yours. God can take on a physical form, but for the most part, He is a Spirit. The Greatest Spirit!! I hope that this answers your questions. Most Christians could tell you that. Just thought I should let you in on this.
Michael
:shocked:
:think:
Dear patrick jane,
I thought I would post to you too, since I noticed your most recent post. There WAS a Great Flood. Let no man tell you different, ever!! Whether man can figure it all out is up to God. With Him, All Things are possible. They forget His Majesty and Glory!!
Thank God For You, PJ!!
Michael
:angel: :cloud9: :angel: :cloud9: :angel: :rapture:
Dear iouae,
I think that it all means that men die and return to dust {not mass extinction}; and I think that God "renewed" the Earth with the Great Flood, and also every new day. Why do you have to make things so difficult?
God Bless You Whole Bunches!!
Michael
:cloud9: :angel: :cloud9:
Dear DavisBJ,
Our God is almost always in Spirit form. When He is in bodily form, yet He has a mouth and vocal chords, but when He is a Spirit, He talks telepathically instead. Jesus was sexually male, but no sex. The Lord munched on and digested food. The Lord also 'went to the bathroom.' And lastly, yes, God, in bodily form did have ears. But the time came for Him to leave the Earth. He was also on the Earth among Adam and Eve.
You are so engrossed with your 'intelligence,' that you are going to miss out on Heaven. Your studies and lectures, whatever, keep you from a better life. Life with God and Jesus IS BETTER!! Someday, you will know that, but it will be too late. You will have a brain full of clutter that doesn't matter anymore, instead of knowledge of the Lord!!
Que Lastima!!
Michael
Dear DavisBJ,
YOU have to want to find HIM first!! It is you who fail to do so. What? Do you want the Lord to FORCE Himself upon you??
Michael
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