Calvinism Verses the "Historical Gospel" of Jesus Christ

[nikolai_42]

God saves those who believe and obey Him---He gives UNDERSTANDING to those who believe and obey Him. I have scriptures saying that. Are you interested in going further?

If you are talking about such verses as Psalm 50:23, John 7:17, John 14:15, John 14:21, John 15:10, I Cor 7:19, I John 2:3,4 , I John 3:24 and Rev 12:17 etc..., I realize the scriptures enjoin obedience. The Savior is not a taskmaster (Matthew 11:30 - the servant in Matthew 25:24 didn't really know Him) and Paul called himself a slave of Jesus Christ (Rom 1:1, I Cor 7:22, Phil 1:1). He was glad to do so. The issue is not whether or not one should obey. That is a ludicrous question if Christ is really one's Master (that one loves). Of course someone who is Christ's will gladly obey Him. But that isn't arrived at by the exertion of one's own will. The cross takes care of that (Matthew 10:28, Matthew 16:34, Luke 9:23, I Cor 15:31 etc...).

So when one looks at Saul's conversion, regardless of when it actually "took", one has to marvel at the obedience of Saul in immediately doing a 180 and stopping his threatening and persecution of Christians on the road to Damascus. Because if he really was doing this all out of the impetus of his own will (obeying God), then why would he change? Why would he instantaneously do exactly the opposite of what all his training as a Pharisee (over years) told him was the right thing to do? It was the work of God, not his obedience that was the strength behind his conversion. It was even the grace of God that was behind his obedience. It had to be. It could never have been otherwise :

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Galatians 1:16-17

In spite of his "breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord" (Acts 9:1), he had (years before!) been separated and called. And when Christ was revealed in and to him, there was no question of what he was to do. Obedient? Yes. Because of his own reasoning and will? No. Because of the work of God in him? Absolutely.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

Which is basically what Jesus told the disciples :

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:16

 

[God's Truth]

You "PREACH" that there are ONLY two posters on TOL that will inherit eternal life. Those two are yourself and Nanja. The rest of the posters are headed for Hell in accordance with your "CRAZY" mindset. You are similar to Letsargue.

You even blame God for creating ALL of humanities sins. That's why nobody takes you seriously. You're a certified "Nutcase."

What is it when a "nut case", as YOU say does not know that he is a nut case?

Jesus says, "But wisdom is proved right by all her children."


What is right?

You preach faith and no obedience to be saved; versus beloved57 preaching no faith no obedience.

What is right? Which one makes the biggest sense? Does doing absolutely nothing God wants make one right, or does one only believing and doing nothing make one right? Think about it...how is doing ANYTHING against God right? How is not obeying and or not having faith ever right? How is it obeying God to not obey God?

You both are wrong.

It is right to have faith in God and to obey God.

 

[nikolai_42]

What is it when a "nut case" does not know that he is a nut case?

Jesus says, "But wisdom is proved right by all her children."


What is right?

You preach faith and no obedience to be saved; versus beloved57 preaching no faith no obedience.

What is right? Which one makes the biggest sense? Does doing absolutely nothing God wants make one right, or does one only believing and doing nothing make one right? Think about it...how is doing ANYTHING against God right? How is not obeying and not having faith ever right?

You both are wrong.

Repentance is not doing right - it is turning from wrong towards God.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
John 3:14-15

God sent serpents among the children of Israel as punishment for their grumbling and complaining against God and Moses :

And the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and much people of Israel died.
Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord, and against thee; pray unto the Lord, that he take away the serpents from us. And Moses prayed for the people.
And the Lord said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.
And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.
Numbers 21:6-9

They confessed their sin and turned towards the serpent. No changing of ways other than turning from their sin towards the provision of God for their salvation.

 

[God's Truth]

If you are talking about such verses as Psalm 50:23, John 7:17, John 14:15, John 14:21, John 15:10, I Cor 7:19, I John 2:3,4 , I John 3:24 and Rev 12:17 etc..., I realize the scriptures enjoin obedience. The Savior is not a taskmaster (Matthew 11:30 - the servant in Matthew 25:24 didn't really know Him) and Paul called himself a slave of Jesus Christ (Rom 1:1, I Cor 7:22, Phil 1:1). He was glad to do so. The issue is not whether or not one should obey. That is a ludicrous question if Christ is really one's Master (that one loves). Of course someone who is Christ's will gladly obey Him. But that isn't arrived at by the exertion of one's own will. The cross takes care of that (Matthew 10:28, Matthew 16:34, Luke 9:23, I Cor 15:31 etc...).

So when one looks at Saul's conversion, regardless of when it actually "took", one has to marvel at the obedience of Saul in immediately doing a 180 and stopping his threatening and persecution of Christians on the road to Damascus. Because if he really was doing this all out of the impetus of his own will (obeying God), then why would he change? Why would he instantaneously do exactly the opposite of what all his training as a Pharisee (over years) told him was the right thing to do? It was the work of God, not his obedience that was the strength behind his conversion. It was even the grace of God that was behind his obedience. It had to be. It could never have been otherwise :

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,
To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Galatians 1:16-17

In spite of his "breathing out threatenings and slaughter against the disciples of the Lord" (Acts 9:1), he had (years before!) been separated and called. And when Christ was revealed in and to him, there was no question of what he was to do. Obedient? Yes. Because of his own reasoning and will? No. Because of the work of God in him? Absolutely.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Ephesians 2:8-10

Which is basically what Jesus told the disciples :

Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
John 15:16

You started out speaking what sounded as the truth, or as close to the truth as you can get, but then you showed yourself for what you have been doing all along, and that is to defend not the truth, but to defend Calvin.
Paul still had to obey. Paul still had to repent. Paul's conversion proves your beliefs to be wrong, for if we are saved first then we believe and obey---why then was Paul not saved at the time he believed?

 

[God's Truth]

Repentance is not doing right - it is turning from wrong towards God.

You do not even know that what you are saying is contradictory, for you say it is not doing right, but from turning from doing wrong!

Turning from doing WRONG IS DOING RIGHT.

And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

How do I tell you this so that you understand? Do you not know they still died in the desert? Do you not know it is because they did NOT OBEY? That is proof that we have to believe AND OBEY.

Joshua 5:6 The Israelites had moved about in the wilderness forty years until all the men who were of military age when they left Egypt had died, since they had not obeyed the LORD. For the LORD had sworn to them that they would not see the land he had solemnly promised their ancestors to give us, a land flowing with milk and honey.

 

[nikolai_42]

You started out speaking what sounded as the truth, or as close to the truth as you can get, but then you showed yourself for what you have been doing all along, and that is to defend not the truth, but to defend Calvin.
Paul still had to obey. Paul still had to repent. Paul's conversion proves your beliefs to be wrong, for if we are saved first then we believe and obey---why then was Paul not saved at the time he believed?

Regardless of whether he was saved or not at the time of Christ's revealing in him, his obedience is remarkable for an avowed enemy of Christians - don't you think so?

I'm not defending Calvin - rather the truth as I see it in scripture. If you were to ask me what he says on this, I honestly would have to say I'm not sure. Repentance does not rest on my fidelity - it rests on my casting all my burdens upon the Lord. It rests on a heart changed to turn to the Living God. The thief on the cross never righted his wrongs.

But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
2 Cor 3:15-16

EDIT : Again, you beg the question by stating something as established fact (when, precisely Saul was saved) which is less well-established than what is obvious - his obedience. The fact remains that his obedience is remarkable for his situation and requires a changed heart (whether you call that "saved" or not is semantics as far as this issue is concerned).

 

[God's Truth]

Regardless of whether he was saved or not at the time of Christ's revealing in him, his obedience is remarkable for an avowed enemy of Christians - don't you think so?

I'm not defending Calvin - rather the truth as I see it in scripture. If you were to ask me what he says on this, I honestly would have to say I'm not sure. Repentance does not rest on my fidelity - it rests on my casting all my burdens upon the Lord. It rests on a heart changed to turn to the Living God. The thief on the cross never righted his wrongs.

If you want to be sure, think about it some more...what does Jesus say? Can you defend his truth about believing and obeying? Can you defend that even if it goes against the denomination you have spent so much of your life studying and believing? Could you give up all falseness for the truth?

Calvinists say we are not able to believe and obey until we are saved; however, we can see from Paul's testimony that Paul believed and was not yet saved. Paul had to DO what Jesus said to do firstl

Acts 9:6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."


Paul was not yet saved...Paul spent the next three days unable to drink or eat anything as he prayed. I can imagine what those prayers must have sounded like.

You are wrong about the thief on the cross. The thief on the cross obeyed what one must do to be saved.

The thief on the cross humbled himself, feared God, admitted his sin and was sorry for it, he acknowledged God before others, and he called on the name of the Lord.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

What is it when a "nut case", as YOU say does not know that he is a nut case?

Jesus says, "But wisdom is proved right by all her children."


What is right?

You preach faith and no obedience to be saved; versus beloved57 preaching no faith no obedience.

What is right? Which one makes the biggest sense? Does doing absolutely nothing God wants make one right, or does one only believing and doing nothing make one right? Think about it...how is doing ANYTHING against God right? How is not obeying and or not having faith ever right? How is it obeying God to not obey God?

You both are wrong.

It is right to have faith in God and to obey God.

Do you believe that you must do a whole lot of works and obedience before God will consider saving you?

 

[Eagles Wings]

Swooping in to say I am enjoying the discussion between God's Truth and Nikolai.

 

[nikolai_42]

If you want to be sure, think about it some more...what does Jesus say? Can you defend his truth about believing and obeying? Can you defend that even if it goes against the denomination you have spent so much of your life studying and believing? Could you give up all falseness for the truth?

Calvinists say we are not able to believe and obey until we are saved; however, we can see from Paul's testimony that Paul believed and was not yet saved. Paul had to DO what Jesus said to do firstl

Acts 9:6 "Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."


Paul was not yet saved...Paul spent the next three days unable to drink or eat anything as he prayed. I can imagine what those prayers must have sounded like.

You are wrong about the thief on the cross. The thief on the cross obeyed what one must do to be saved.

The thief on the cross humbled himself, feared God, admitted his sin and was sorry for it, he acknowledged God before others, and he called on the name of the Lord.

So you know when Saul was saved? You think Saul would have done what he did if he didn't acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord? And again, you're missing the huge fact that he instantaneously changed course from going to threaten, persecute and kill believers to becoming one of them. If that isn't (at least) a work of the Lord in the heart, I don't know what is.

 

[God's Truth]

So you know when Saul was saved? You think Saul would have done what he did if he didn't acknowledge Jesus Christ as Lord? And again, you're missing the huge fact that he instantaneously changed course from going to threaten, persecute and kill believers to becoming one of them. If that isn't (at least) a work of the Lord in the heart, I don't know what is.

Again, Paul was not yet saved until after he believed...and obeyed.

God does not give the Holy Spirit to someone first and then cause them to believe and obey.

God gives the Holy Spirit to those who believe and obey. That is scripture.

 

[nikolai_42]

Again, Paul was not yet saved until after he believed...and obeyed.

You're assuming what you haven't proven. It is a doubtful assertion - where Paul's obedience is not. God does not leave the murderer alone to change his ways on his own before hearing him. He doesn't wait for us to clean ourselves up before hearing us. The recognition of sin and need for a Savior is the work of the Holy Spirit in us :

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Of sin, because they believe not on me;
Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;
Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
John 16:7-11

 

[beloved57]

People like yourself that don't believe the Gospel will go to hell.

What is it when a "nut case", as YOU say does not know that he is a nut case?

Jesus says, "But wisdom is proved right by all her children."


What is right?

You preach faith and no obedience to be saved; versus beloved57 preaching no faith no obedience.

What is right? Which one makes the biggest sense? Does doing absolutely nothing God wants make one right, or does one only believing and doing nothing make one right? Think about it...how is doing ANYTHING against God right? How is not obeying and or not having faith ever right? How is it obeying God to not obey God?

You both are wrong.

It is right to have faith in God and to obey God.

I'm made righteous by the Obedience of Jesus Christ. So I preach the Obedience of Christ alone as that which saves a person.

You preach the obedience of man saves a man.

 

[God's Truth]

Do you believe that you must do a whole lot of works and obedience before God will consider saving you?

Jesus saves a person when he wants to save them, when they are acceptable to him. After they are saved, they must stay firm and not be led away.

Read the parable of the sower explained.

Read about how we are told to live up to what we have received.

Read too and consider this scripture, Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

What do the scriptures say about after being accepted?

This is what the scriptures say:

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.

Philippians 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Colossians 1:10
so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

Colossians 2:6
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him,

1 Thessalonians 2:12
encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:1
As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

King James Bible
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering,

 

[beloved57]

People like yourself that don't believe the Gospel will go to hell.

 

[God's Truth]

I'm made righteous by the Obedience of Jesus Christ. So I preach the Obedience of Christ alone as that which saves a person.

You preach the obedience of man saves a man.

Jesus obeyed so that we can have someone to obey.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Jesus saves a person when he wants to save them, when they are acceptable to him. After they are saved, they must stay firm and not be led away.

Read the parable of the sower explained.

Read about how we are told to live up to what we have received.

Read too and consider this scripture, Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.

What do the scriptures say about after being accepted?

This is what the scriptures say:

2 Peter 1:10
Therefore, my brothers and sisters, make every effort to confirm your calling and election.

Philippians 3:16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

Ephesians 4:1 As a prisoner for the Lord, then, I urge you to live a life worthy of the calling you have received.

Colossians 1:10
so that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God,

Colossians 2:6
So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him,

1 Thessalonians 2:12
encouraging, comforting and urging you to live lives worthy of God, who calls you into his kingdom and glory.

1 Thessalonians 4:1
As for other matters, brothers and sisters, we instructed you how to live in order to please God, as in fact you are living. Now we ask you and urge you in the Lord Jesus to do this more and more.

King James Bible
2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:

2 Thessalonians 1:5 It is a clear evidence of God’s righteous judgment that you will be counted worthy of God’s kingdom, for which you also are suffering,

You are extremely confused.

 

[Robert Pate]

Again, Paul was not yet saved until after he believed...and obeyed.

God does not give the Holy Spirit to someone first and then cause them to believe and obey.

God gives the Holy Spirit to those who believe and obey. That is scripture.

Only if you are a legalist. The Pharisees also thought that they could keep the law. If you would like to know what Jesus thought of them read Matthew 23rd chapter. There is a lot there about being a hypocrite.

 

[beloved57]

gt

Again, Paul was not yet saved until after he believed...and obeyed.

False statement not found in scripture!

 

[God's Truth]

Jesus tells us how to be saved.

Jesus is the Way.

If we could not do what we can do to be saved, then Jesus would not have told us how to be saved.