"And you are complete in him" (Jesus Christ) Colossians 2:10

[Clete]

This is Paul in Romans 3

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

If we have the spirit in our hearts we will obey God; and his laws will be in our hearts and in our minds (Hebrews 10)

Paul did not write Hebrew but regardless, the law was established, yes, BUT NOT FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS SAKE!!!!!

You guys have got to start paying attention to what you read!

This problem is, I think, a symptom of the way the modern church does bible study. They read one or two verses and then go around the room and ask everyone to say something about what they think the verse is teaching. So the whole room is "educated" one verse at a time by a whole room full of people who don't know any more about the bible than they do. That isn't the way you're supposed to study anything much less something as important as the book God wrote.

This is also a major reason I refuse to proof text with people. When I make a Biblical argument I try to provide a whole body of text from more than one book that demonstrates a common theme so that people get a view of the big picture and understand the context of what is being said.

If I wanted to argue that the Law should be followed today, I could quote Paul too!...

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,​

But such a quote completely ignores the context of that statement as does your quote.

The law is not for us it is against us. The law is there to convict us, to kill us. The law is for the unbeliever! See the very next few verses...

1 Timothy 1:9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.​

I ask again...

How much more explicit do you want the bible to be? How can anyone stand in defense of any position that want to place any believer under the law? Paul states it over and over and over again and says it in every imaginable way.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Galatians 4: 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? ...... 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Galatians 5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The Twelve writing to Paul's converts....
15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment—

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, ​

And I could go on quoting verse after verse until I basically quoted almost the entirety of Paul's epistles. Paul's theme, the most basic point of his ministry is faith not works, Love not Law. DO NOT PLACE YOURSELF UNDER THE LAW! That's the starting point! That's the milk!

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[beameup]

King Jimmy and his court of court jesters have lied to you and you have bitten down hard on a jagged hook.
Young's Literal Bible also follows the Textus Receptus, (like the KJV), and correctly renders the passage:

Romans 15:8 YLT (Young's Literal Bible)
8 And I say Jesus Christ to have become a ministrant of circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises to the fathers,

The American Standard Version follows the Westcott-Hort text and also gives the correct reading:

Neither Wescott nor Hort were Christians, they were "Anglicans", who didn't believe in literal miracles, the resurrection, nor the virgin birth. Satan has duped you.

He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

His "message" was to and for the Jews. The "risen Christ" saved Paul and gave him a "new set of instructions"
and "set-aside" the Millennial plans for Israel... until the "fullness of the Gentiles".

Simply "claiming" the Sermon on the Mount for yourself to live under, doesn't make it so... but go ahead and TRY. I'll follow Paul any day.

 

[Clete]

So then, according to your forced understanding of telos from your previous posts, Messiah is also done away with:

Romans 10:4 KJV
4 For Christ is the end [telos] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Luke 22:37 KJV
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end [telos].

G5056 τέλος telos (te'-los) n.
1. (properly)the point aimed at as a limit.
2. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (a termination).
3. (literally, figuratively or indefinitely) a result.
4. (immediate, ultimate or prophetic) a purpose.
5. (specially) an tax or levy (as paid).
[from a primary tello “to set out for a definite point or goal”]
KJV: + continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost

According to Clete, who is not a moron, Messiah has come to an end. How much clearer can Clete be? Got it!

Meanwhile us morons thankfully understand that Messiah is the POINT AIMED AT in the Torah for righteousness because the Torah is our "schoolmaster" to lead us into Messiah. And the joint-heir, so long as he or she is a child, differs nothing from a slave, though he or she be master of all; but is under Tutors, (Prophets), and Governors, (Torah and Writings), until the time appointed of the Father, (when a child becomes a son). :chuckle:

Play all the word games you like. The bible cannot be more explicitly clear. All you have to do is read it. As I have now repeatedly established.

 

[Danoh]

beameup, it is a well known fact that King James: an Amillennialist Anglican, was behind the KJV the Anglican Church of England he was basically the head of, as King of England, used.

 

[daqq]

Neither Wescott nor Hort were Christians, they were "Anglicans", who didn't believe in literal miracles, the resurrection, nor the virgin birth. Satan has duped you.
His "message" was to and for the Jews. The "risen Christ" saved Paul and gave him a "new set of instructions"
and "set-aside" the Millennial plans for Israel... until the "fullness of the Gentiles".

Simply "claiming" the Sermon on the Mount for yourself to live under, doesn't make it so... but go ahead and TRY. I'll follow Paul any day.

Instead of telling people that "Satan has duped you" it would be much more expedient for you to immediately stop trying to teach people because clearly neither you nor Clete understand what you read. If you truly understood Romans you would have known that it cannot be "fullness of the Gentiles" but must in fact be "fullness of the heathen" because of how Paul employs that word, (ethnos), in the entire book, that is, in contrast with Greeks, barbarians, and nations, gentiles, or heathen, (which three in italics are all the same word ethnos and may only be understood by the full context of Romans). And even with someone explaining this to you it is quite clear that you will still have no clue what I speak of and will deny the truth once again because it does not align with you paradigm. It is you who are duped by your own teachers because you never look outside of what you already want to hear. You cannot understand Paul unless and until you accept the full Testimony of Yeshua as applying to yourself and at the same time one must have and hold that Testimony in uprightness. However, if you do that then you already appear to know that the whole book will necessarily begin to apply to yourself; and you cannot have that now can you? Your "Bible" essentially consists of the words of Paul and therefore you are no better off than Marcion the heretic who took a literal pair of scissors and cut out all of the Tanach quotes in his Pauline epistles and the Gospel of Luke which were the only books in his canon. The only difference is that you use an imaginary pair of theological scissors to do your slicing, splicing, and deleting. And telling people they are "duped by Satan" is not going to help or change your situation, O king. :crackup:

 

[daqq]

Play all the word games you like. The bible cannot be more explicitly clear. All you have to do is read it. As I have now repeatedly established.

The only thing you have established is that you call people morons when they do not agree with your position and have the truth of scripture to back up what they say. That does not bode well for you either, O king. :chuckle:

 

[Danoh]

So then, according to your forced understanding of telos from your previous posts, Messiah is also done away with:

Romans 10:4 KJV
4 For Christ is the end [telos] of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Luke 22:37 KJV
37 For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end [telos].

G5056 τέλος telos (te'-los) n.
1. (properly)the point aimed at as a limit.
2. (by implication) the conclusion of an act or state (a termination).
3. (literally, figuratively or indefinitely) a result.
4. (immediate, ultimate or prophetic) a purpose.
5. (specially) an tax or levy (as paid).
[from a primary tello “to set out for a definite point or goal”]
KJV: + continual, custom, end(-ing), finally, uttermost

According to Clete, who is not a moron, Messiah has come to an end. How much clearer can Clete be? Got it!

Meanwhile us morons thankfully understand that Messiah is the POINT AIMED AT in the Torah for righteousness because the Torah is our "schoolmaster" to lead us into Messiah. And the joint-heir, so long as he or she is a child, differs nothing from a slave, though he or she be master of all; but is under Tutors, (Prophets), and Governors, (Torah and Writings), until the time appointed of the Father, (when a child becomes a son). :chuckle:

Christ was the end of the Law in the sense that He was Who the Law (and the Prophets) had pointed to...

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

But He was also the end of the Law for righteousness...

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[marhig]

Paul did not write Hebrew but regardless, the law was established, yes, BUT NOT FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS SAKE!!!!!

You guys have got to start paying attention to what you read!

This problem is, I think, a symptom of the way the modern church does bible study. They read one or two verses and then go around the room and ask everyone to say something about what they think the verse is teaching. So the whole room is "educated" one verse at a time by a whole room full of people who don't know any more about the bible than they do. That isn't the way you're supposed to study anything much less something as important as the book God wrote.

This is also a major reason I refuse to proof text with people. When I make a Biblical argument I try to provide a whole body of text from more than one book that demonstrates a common theme so that people get a view of the big picture and understand the context of what is being said.

If I wanted to argue that the Law should be followed today, I could quote Paul too!...

1 Timothy 1:8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully,​

But such a quote completely ignores the context of that statement as does your quote.

The law is not for us it is against us. The law is there to convict us, to kill us. The law is for the unbeliever! See the very next few verses...

1 Timothy 1:9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.​

I ask again...

How much more explicit do you want the bible to be? How can anyone stand in defense of any position that want to place any believer under the law? Paul states it over and over and over again and says it in every imaginable way.

Romans 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not!

Galatians 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth,[a] before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

Galatians 4: 21 Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law? ...... 31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman but of the free.

Galatians 5:2
Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.

Galatians 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

The Twelve writing to Paul's converts....
15:24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment—

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, ​

And I could go on quoting verse after verse until I basically quoted almost the entirety of Paul's epistles. Paul's theme, the most basic point of his ministry is faith not works, Love not Law. DO NOT PLACE YOURSELF UNDER THE LAW! That's the starting point! That's the milk!

Resting in Him,
Clete

I see it like this, God gave the laws for man to follow, man manipulated the laws to suit themselves. For instance, the pharasees knew that it was wrong to kill Jesus, so they being underhand, put him into the hands of the Romans and even when Pilate wanted to let Jesus go, they made sure that Jesus got the death penalty by threatening Pilate with Caesar. So they got their way, but they didn't break the laws because they didn't kill him. They manipulated the law of God. And what did Jesus say to Pilate? They that handed me over have the greater sin. God will see everything that we do against him.

Jesus came to show the way, he lived it out and fulfilled the laws, but that doesn't mean he abolished them. On the contrary, he came as an example for us to follow. Now we have no excuse. Jesus even expounded the laws, saying that even lusting after someone is committing adultery, and that hating your brother is as bad as murder. So why do you think that we can just ignore Gods laws and not obey them? Jesus never once told us to ignore the law of God,.

Jesus said to the desciples that he would send the comforter and he would bring everything that he taught them into rememberance, he also said that the holy spirit would teach them all things. The holy spirit is teaching me to obey God, not that I can just live my own life and I'm saved. Why do you think that Paul said he died daily? Because Paul was being put to death in the flesh by the spirit and Christ was living in him and through him. If Christ is living in our hearts we will be obeying God.

I think the thing that's most shocked me is people think they are saved and they can carry on sinning no worries. I'm afraid that's false teaching, because to be saved is to have the holy spirit in our hearts putting sin to death and we should be obeying him and listening to our conscience. If Christ is in our hearts, people will see the fruits in your lives. If not and we're still wilfully sinning, we will be like the withered fig tree, good for nothing, because we will be showing the wrong picture to others And we will be crucifying Christ afresh and putting him to an open shame

You believe what you will. But I believe that to follow Christ we must obey God. And the holy spirit will be guiding us to follow the laws of God. There isn't 2 gospels theres only 1, and God doesn't change or lie, so we are to obey him. Anything that teaches differently is false teaching. Jesus taught us to obey God.

Paul is simply saying that man can manipulate the laws and weaken them, but if we walk in the spirit by the grace of God we will live it out because the spirit will write the laws in our mind and in our hearts. And we'll obey him and establish the laws.

 

[daqq]

Christ was the end of the Law in the sense that He was Who the Law (and the Prophets) had pointed to...

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

But He was also the end of the Law for righteousness...

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

So what? None of that "abolishes" the Law and Paul loudly proclaims that he serves the Law in both forms, (Sinai and Horeb), in Romans 7. In addition if you keep reading in Galatians, from what you have quoted last in your post, you will see the conclusion of that passage. Just because it has now been divided into chapters and verse numbering does not mean the passage ends at the last verse of chapter three, in fact, the thrust of the argument comes in what follows in the next chapter:

Galatians 4:1-2
1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differs nothing from a slave, though he be master of all:
2 But is under tutors [prophets] and governors [Torah and Psalms/Writings] until the time appointed of the Father.

Come to think of it I was just trying to explain to Beameup how even Paul teaches that there is a time appointed of the Father when a child becomes a son in the kingdom of the heavens: but apparently he wants no part of circumcision of the heart in the way that Paul teaches it from the Prophets and the Torah, go figure. :rotfl:

 

[Clete]

I see it like this, God gave the laws for man to follow, man manipulated the laws to suit themselves. For instance, the pharasees knew that it was wrong to kill Jesus, so they being underhand, put him into the hands of the Romans and even when Pilate wanted to let Jesus go, they made sure that Jesus got the death penalty by threatening Pilate with Caesar. So they got their way, but they didn't break the laws because they didn't kill him. They manipulated the law of God. And what did Jesus say to Pilate? They that handed me over have the greater sin. God will see everything that we do against him.

Jesus came to show the way, he lived it out and fulfilled the laws, but that doesn't mean he abolished them. On the contrary, he came as an example for us to follow. Now we have no excuse. Jesus even expounded the laws, saying that even lusting after someone is committing adultery, and that hating your brother is as bad as murder. So why do you think that we can just ignore Gods laws and not obey them? Jesus never once told us to ignore the law of God,.

Jesus said to the desciples that he would send the comforter and he would bring everything that he taught them into rememberance, he also said that the holy spirit would teach them all things. The holy spirit is teaching me to obey God, not that I can just live my own life and I'm saved. Why do you think that Paul said he died daily? Because Paul was being put to death in the flesh by the spirit and Christ was living in him and through him. If Christ is living in our hearts we will be obeying God.

I think the thing that's most shocked me is people think they are saved and they can carry on sinning no worries. I'm afraid that's false teaching, because to be saved is to have the holy spirit in our hearts putting sin to death and we should be obeying him and listening to our conscience. If Christ is in our hearts, people will see the fruits in your lives. If not and we're still wilfully sinning, we will be like the withered fig tree, good for nothing, because we will be showing the wrong picture to others And we will be crucifying Christ afresh and putting him to an open shame

You believe what you will. But I believe that to follow Christ we must obey God. And the holy spirit will be guiding us to follow the laws of God. There isn't 2 gospels theres only 1, and God doesn't change or lie, so we are to obey him. Anything that teaches differently is false teaching. Jesus taught us to obey God.

Paul is simply saying that man can manipulate the laws and weaken them, but if we walk in the spirit by the grace of God we will live it out because the spirit will write the laws in our mind and in our hearts. And we'll obey him and establish the laws.

Thank you for a completely unresponsive post that gives your personal opinion and completely ignores the plain reading any dozens of texts that I have quoted and that you have personally read yourself. I'll take it to mean you have no substantive response.

The fact is that the way you see it is completely irrelevant! I don't call myself a Christian because of the way you see things. I don't formulate my doctrine based on personal opinions. I read the bible and take if for what it says.

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[marhig]

Thank you for a completely unresponsive post that gives your personal opinion and completely ignores the plain reading any dozens of texts that I have quoted and that you have personally read yourself.

The fact is that the way you see it is completely irrelevant! I don't call myself a Christian because of the way you see thing. I don't formulate my doctrine based on personal opinions. I read the bible and take if for what it says.

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

Resting in Him,
Clete

I live my life by the will of God, and that means to obey him!

Hebrews 10

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

By the way, the word of truth should be teaching you that it's wrong to sin!

 

[Clete]

The only thing you have established is that you call people morons when they do not agree with your position and have the truth of scripture to back up what they say. That does not bode well for you either, O king. :chuckle:

I call people morons when they act like mouth breathing slobbering idiots who cannot think.

No one has to agree with me but if they want to debate me, they don't get to just ignore the argument and repeat themselves as though the restating of their position refutes sound reason. You're as guilty of it as anyone. TOL is a big pool of morons playing like they know what they're talking about with a tiny handful of people who are here to learn and to teach. You think that quoting a single word of the original language negates the meaning of the whole passage, indeed the whole ministry of Paul! That makes you one of the one's who doesn't have a clue. You're here to feed your ego, not to debate anything.

If you don't like my posts, don't read them. I'll return the favor.

 

[Clete]

I live my life by the will of God, and that means to obey him!

Hebrews 10

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them

Then why not respond to an argument with a counter argument instead of simply restating what everyone already knows is your position?

You're wasting everyone's time!

Hebrew was NOT written to you! Nor is it about you!

There's a great deal of evidence to suggest that the book was written to, for about about the HEBREWS!!!!

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT

You cannot just proof-text your way through the bible and hope to come out with a coherent doctrine!

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

 

[marhig]

Then why not respond to an argument with a counter argument instead of simply restating what everyone already knows is your position?

You're wasting everyone's time!

Hebrew was NOT written to you! Nor is it about you!

There's a great deal of evidence to suggest that the book was written to, for about about the HEBREWS!!!!

CONTEXT CONTEXT CONTEXT

You cannot just proof-text your way through the bible and hope to come out with a coherent doctrine!

2 Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.​

So didn't Paul preach the same gospel as Jesus then the one that Jesus said is to be preached all the world and to every creature and not just the Hebrews?

 

[Clete]

So didn't Paul preach the same gospel as Jesus then the one that Jesus said is to be preached all the world and to every creature and not just the Hebrews?

What an awesome question!

Seriously, that is an outstanding question. It is the only logical question you could have asked.

No!, Paul did not preach the same gospel that Jesus taught or that the Twelve taught.

If he had, there would have been no need for him to exist as an apostle to begin with. Paul did not receive, what he repeatedly refers to as "my gospel", from man nor was he taught it. It was given to him directly from the risen Christ by revelation. This what Galatians (likely Paul's first epistle) is about...

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),

11 But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. 12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.

15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb and called me through His grace, 16 to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately confer with flesh and blood, 17 nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went to Arabia, and returned again to Damascus.

18 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and remained with him fifteen days. 19 But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. 20 (Now concerning the things which I write to you, indeed, before God, I do not lie.)

2:1 Then after fourteen years I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas, and also took Titus with me. 2 And I went up by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain.

6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. ​

Now, read that through and notice something important. Something that goes back even to what I've been saying about proof-texts.

Notice that all of the "proof-texts" for following the law are in books written by, too, about and for Jews (i.e. Kingdom believers), while all the "proof-texts" for liberty are in the Pauline epistles.

Think this is the only doctrinal debate that falls along those lines? If so, you'd be mistaken.

Do you have to be baptized to be saved?
Do you have to observe the Sabbath?
Can you lose your salvation?
Are works necessary for salvation?
Should believers speak in tongues?
Should believers expect miracles and healing to happen today?
Is there a pre-tribulation rapture?
Should believers avoid certain foods?

Etc. etc. etc.

All of these and more have the same solution in common. There's a list as long as your arm of major doctrinal debates that are resolved by understanding one single thing. Paul's gospel is NOT that same as that taught by Jesus during His Earthly ministry and subsequently by the Twelve Apostles. Paul is the apostle to the Body of Christ and to NO ONE else, while the Twelve ministered to the Circumcision (i.e. Kingdom Gospel believers).

This will sound like bragging or like arrogance. I assure you that it is nothing of the sort. What you've just read, if your actually read it, is almost certainly the single most important doctrinal thing you've ever read since becoming a Christian. It is the key to understanding the New Testament. It's that important.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[Ben Masada]

So, you believe that Christianity is one big lie?

Just as much as you have said here several times that Judaism is obsolete.

 

[Tambora]

Christ was the end of the Law in the sense that He was Who the Law (and the Prophets) had pointed to...

John 1:40 One of the two which heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.

1:44 Now Philip was of Bethsaida, the city of Andrew and Peter. 1:45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art the King of Israel.

John 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only? 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. 5:46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me. 5:47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

But He was also the end of the Law for righteousness...

Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Galatians 3:21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe. 3:23 But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 3:25 But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster. 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Superb!

 

[Robert Pate]

Just as much as you have said here several times that Judaism is obsolete.

The Bible teaches that Judaism is obsolete, Hebrews 8:6:13.

You are still following the Old Covenant.

 

[daqq]

I call people morons when they act like mouth breathing slobbering idiots who cannot think.

No one has to agree with me but if they want to debate me, they don't get to just ignore the argument and repeat themselves as though the restating of their position refutes sound reason. You're as guilty of it as anyone. TOL is a big pool of morons playing like they know what they're talking about with a tiny handful of people who are here to learn and to teach. You think that quoting a single word of the original language negates the meaning of the whole passage, indeed the whole ministry of Paul! That makes you one of the one's who doesn't have a clue. You're here to feed your ego, not to debate anything.

If you don't like my posts, don't read them. I'll return the favor.

Just another stab in the dark with false accusations which does not help your argument one iota.

Romans 10:4 The Scriptures (ISR 2009)
4 For Messiah is the goal(b) of the ‘Torah unto righteousness’ to everyone who believes. Footnote: b Or end purpose; not termination.

Romans 10:4
4 For Messiah is the point aimed at of law toward righteousness to everyone faithfully trusting.

That matches perfectly with what Paul says about the Torah being your "schoolmaster" to bring you to Messiah. You only see what you want to see because you never had Torah as your schoolmaster to begin with. And if you have never been under the law then you have never been brought through it or out from under it. And if you have never had the Torah as your schoolmaster to bring you to Messiah then you climbed up into the sheepfold by some other way, (John 10:1).

 

[daqq]

King Jimmy and his court of court jesters have lied to you and you have bitten down hard on a jagged hook.
Young's Literal Bible also follows the Textus Receptus, (like the KJV), and correctly renders the passage:

Romans 15:8 YLT (Young's Literal Bible)
8 And I say Jesus Christ to have become a ministrant of circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises to the fathers,

The American Standard Version follows the Westcott-Hort text and also gives the correct reading:

Romans 15:8 ASV
8 For I say that Christ hath been made a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, that he might confirm the promises given unto the fathers,

Neither of them say what you and king Jimmy say, but rather, that Yeshua HAS BECOME the [new] Minister of the circumcision, (just as he is the neos-New Mediator of the kainos-New-Renewed Covenant). Therefore YOU must also be circumcised, and that is to say, circumcised in heart according to not only Paul but Moshe as stated in the Torah.

Neither Wescott nor Hort were Christians, they were "Anglicans", who didn't believe in literal miracles, the resurrection, nor the virgin birth. Satan has duped you.

By the way, you either completely missed the point or intentionally obfuscated the reality that is right in front of your eyes: I quoted texts from both the Textus Receptus and the W/H that clearly show how the KJV simply MISTRANSLATED the passage you quoted to bolster your erroneous position. I was not supporting one or the other but simply covering all of the bases. The Young's Literal is rendered from the same text as the KJV, (Textus Receptus), and that translation also refutes what you posted. There is no Greek text that says what you and king Jimmy say in that passage.