Epoisses
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So Clete who started the church, the Jews or the Gentiles?
"And you are complete in him" (Jesus Christ) Colossians 2:10
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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So Clete who started the church, the Jews or the Gentiles?
Epoisses
New member
I have no problem with James! Genuine faith always produces the fruits or works of the Spirit. No fruit = no faith. James also talked quite a bit about the Royal law of Love. How many Jews today preach on the love of God? lol
Do you ever - even once answer questions?
Who got it wrong? Jesus, John, Moses - who? I quoted and quoted and quoted and quoted. Then I predicted that no amount of quoting the bible, not even the words that came directly out of the mouth of the Lord Jesus Christ Himself would be sufficient to convince you and of course I was right.
So what you are actually suggesting that Paul who was of the Tribe of Benjamin by the way, (an anti-type of the first Saul of the Tribe of Benjamin) represents the Levitical priesthood somehow?
Here's another question that you won't answer. Which of the thirteen Apostles will not have their name on one of the twelve foundations under the walls around New Jerusalem?
So now you are a Judaizing heretic, by your own definition!
Same answer. Both Jesus and the Father are One, they are both God.
Did you think I would answer differently? How is this relevant to the topic?
You'll be forced to actually answer a question in order to proceed, by the way.
I'm not the one making the claim that Jesus, Peter, James, John and Paul all taught one gospel, YOU ARE!!!
Thank you for conceding the debate!
Define 'church'.
Peter was the leader of the church initially and remained the head of the 'ecclesia' that I and other dispensationalists refer to as Kingdom Believers.
Paul was/is the head of Body of Christ which is what we are talking about today when we use the term 'church'.
Of course Jesus is the Head of both groups. He is Israel's Bride Groom (Revelation 21) and the Head of The Body of Christ (Colossians 1).
Resting in Him,
Clete
The twelve apostles will judge the twelve twelve tribes of Jacob (Israel). (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30)
The tribe of Levi does not belong to Jacob, they belong to YHVH.
What makes you think any of the three got it wrong? I don't.
And we are one with them. The Father is the Most High, and Jesus is our brother.
Paul.
The tribe of Levi had no inheritance.
Still one of the twelve sons of Jacob and therefore one of the twelve tribes.
They never stopped being a tribe of Israel.
Epoisses
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The fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace etc.
The works of the law are feast keeping, kosher food, Sabbath days etc.
Faith produces fruit not dead works.
Epoisses
New member
The word 'ekklesia' means church and contained both Jewish and Gentile believers. Both groups were part of the church in the first century.
beameup
New member
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ekklesia=assembly
Epoisses
New member
ekklesia is translated as assembly 3 times and church 115 times in the NT.
beameup
New member
So?
Obviously the translators screwed up in Acts 7:38.
Many times it is translated "church" when it should say "synagogue",
as there were no 'Gentile church buildings' in the 1st century.
Then what was the point of bringing it up?
You brought it up, not me!
You claim there are thirteen tribe of Israel and give you something like a dozen quotes from the bible stating that there are twelve and you want to still insist that there are thirteen! Just as I predicted you would - by the way.
Are you suggesting now that your having brought but the priesthood was irrelevant to the topic being discussed or what?
We are not one with them in the same sense that they are one with each other. We are not God.
One more chance - and only one - how is this relevant to the topic being discussed?
THEN WHY DID YOU BOTHER BRING THIS UP?
Are you just intentionally wasting my time?
Look, you will explain yourself and you will do so in detail with a post that is longer than one sentence long or I'll simply ignore you and you can go waste someone else's time.
The twelve tribes of Israel came from the twelve sons of Israel. “Israel” is the name that God gave Jacob (Genesis 32:28). His twelve sons are Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Joseph, and Benjamin (Genesis 35:23-26; Exodus 1:1–4; 1 Chronicles 2:1–2). When the tribes inherited the Promised Land, Levi’s descendants did not receive a territory for themselves (Joshua 13:14). Instead, they became priests and had several cities scattered throughout all of Israel. Joseph’s tribe was divided in two—Jacob had adopted Joseph’s two sons, Ephraim and Manasseh, essentially giving Joseph a double portion for his faithfulness in saving the family from famine (Genesis 47:11–12). This means the tribes who received territory in the Promised Land were Reuben, Simeon, Judah, Dan, Naphtali, Gad, Asher, Issachar, Zebulun, Benjamin, Ephraim, and Manasseh. In some places in Scripture, the tribe of Ephraim is referred to as the tribe of Joseph (Numbers 1:32–33). - Source
So, one might ask which list of twelve is represented on the foundations of New Jerusalem. The answer is found in Revelation chapter seven where the twelve tribes are listed. A list, by the way that INCLUDES Levi, which sort of explodes Jamie's whole point, whatever that point was...
Revelation 7:4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed. One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel were sealed:
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
5 of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;
6 of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;
7 of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;
8 of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.
Resting in Him,
Clete
You are missing the point.
Is it intentional?
You brought up the Judaising heresy, not me.
Paul attributes that heresy (your word, not Paul's) to James! And James, when taken to mean what it clearly states, teaches that salvation is dependent upon BOTH faith and works, which is what YOU said was the Judaising heresy - not me!
Can we PLEASE try to have a linear conversation here?! I feel like I'm talking to a child who can't follow his own line a reasoning past two sentences.
Saying it doesn't make it so.
Make an actual argument. I'm not interested in statements of your doctrinal positions unless you're prepared to substantiate them with something more substantive than the fact that you're able to type them out on your computer.
Resting in Him,
Clete