6days
New member
Denying our Creator is a product of Satan. Scripture tells us Jesus had pre-existence. He is the uncreated Creator. He is not another God... Jesus is God.
Jesus is God.
- Thread starter jzeidler
- Start date
Nice try but in actuality with every post the only thing you are exposing is more and more of your own delusion. Although I do not necessarily agree with everything on the following page you would do well to read it, (I simply found it at the top of a quick search page seeing how you prefer not to do any searching of your own accord to either prove or disprove what has been said). It is fairly clear that Trinitarians have taken hold of an ancient Gnostic text and used it to make the claim that, "Jesus is Almighty God in the flesh". Truth be told it is you who have been duped and led by the nose straight into an adulterated version of your own "Christianized" form of gnosticism.
Gnostic Enigmas in the Gospel of John
"The early Gnostics assigned profound significance to the Gospel of John—especially to the opening verses or “prologue.” Just like the opening verses of Genesis, the opening verses of John allude to a “beginning”, but the beginning of what? Orthodox readers would say that John describes the eternal state of the Godhead in the beginning. Thus in the beginning there was the Father and the Son or “Logos” (Word). But the Gnostics saw an entirely different message in the Greek text. An historic eye-witness who reported on this was the Catholic Father Irenaeus. In book 1 of Against Heresies Irenaeus quotes from a lengthy Gnostic commentary on the prologue of John (1.8.5)[1]. According to this source the Gnostics believed the opening verses revealed nothing less than the very origin of the Pleroma, and also explicitly mentioned the names of several primeval entities or “Aions” which emanated forth in succession from the Father. These Aions have the following names in Greek and they are important figures in Gnostic/Valentinian myth: Monogenes (also called Arche), and Aletheia, Logos, Zoe, Anthropos and Charis. These are common names in Gnostic myth as reported by Irenaeus and is corroborated in the Nag Hammadi Library [2]. It just so happens that these very names are also mentioned in the opening verses of John."
https://ogdoas.wordpress.com/category/gnosticism-and-the-gospel-of-john/
keypurr
Well-known member
Scripture disagrees with you. God created all through his spiritual son (Christ), not Jesus. Churches do not teach that, they are tied to the traditions of the early leaders who were in error. The Apostles did not think Jesus was God, they knew he was the son of God not God. You fail to see that the spirit son was in the flesh son and spoke through him. You turn your back on spirits and demons because we know little about them.
God is a spirit, his express image, son, is also a spirit. You also should be aware that is important to realize. You also need to consider the fact that this son needed a body to dwell in. Heb 10:5. This is how the logos became flesh. This all happened at the anointing of Jesus.
Jesus said that he was going to his God and our God, why don't you just take him at his word?
6days
New member
No..... Jesus (Jesus Christ, Christ Jesus, Son of God, Messiah, Last Adam, Mediator, Advocate, Alpha and Omega, Mighty God...etc) is not another God. Jesus is God.
Scripture tells us that in the beginning God created.
Scripture tells us that Jesus is not created, but existed eternally.
"for through him God created everything in the heavenly realms and on earth. He made the things we can see and the things we can't see--such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world. Everything was created through him and for him."
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Show me where that is written in the Tanach.
The only ones worshipping two gods, a "God the Father" and a "god the son" are the idol worshipping Christians.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Luke 3:22 (KJV 1900)
220" And the Holy Ghost descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon him, and a voice came from heaven, which said, Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased."
Does it say that all three are gods? Does it say that those three supposed gods are one?
If not, then there is no trinity.
So you have there two of your gods in bodily form, a dove and a man.
"You saw no form of any kind the day Y-H-W-H spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things Y-H-W-H your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven."
Deut 4:15-19
Oh what is it difficult not to worship idols....
"And God spoke all these words, saying, "I am Y-H-W-H your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME."
Ex 20:1+2
beameup
New member
Well, you have conjured up "Two Messiahs" (with capital "M"), show me where that is written in the Tanach.
BTW, whatever happened to that "messiah" of yours that came in 408 B.C.?
If you can get ahold of a Talmud/Mishna from the 1st century, you will find the "Two Powers". Of course, your venerated "rabbis" have hidden many thing from you in the last 2 millennia.
Good point,
Genesis 1:1-2 M/T
1 In the beginning Elohim cuts down-creates the shamayim and the erets.
2 And the erets is formless, and vacuous-void; and darkness is upon the face of the abyss: and Ruach Elohim is brooding upon the face of the waters.
Genesis 1:1-2 LXX
1 εν αρχη εποιησεν ο θεος τον ουρανον και την γην
2 η δε γη ην αορατος και ακατασκευαστος και σκοτος επανω της αβυσσου και πνευμα θεου επεφερετο επανω του υδατος
πνευμα θεου = Ruach Elohim (no definite article in either language)
Ruach Elohim = the Dove (brooding / fluttering)
This form, "πνευμα θεου", (anarthrous / without an article), is a rare combination in the Apostolic writings:
Here it occurs at the immersion of Yeshua:
Matthew 3:16 W/H
16 βαπτισθεις δε ο ιησους ευθυς ανεβη απο του υδατος και ιδου ηνεωχθησαν οι ουρανοι και ειδεν πνευμα θεου καταβαινον ωσει περιστεραν ερχομενον επ αυτον
"And he saw Ruach Elohim descending, as if a Dove, coming upon him"
Here we see Paul purposefully equate πνευμα θεου with πνευμα χριστου ("Spirit [of] Meshiah" likewise not having an article).
Romans 8:9 W/H
9 υμεις δε ουκ εστε εν σαρκι αλλα εν πνευματι ειπερ πνευμα θεου οικει εν υμιν ει δε τις πνευμα χριστου ουκ εχει ουτος ουκ εστιν αυτου
9 Moreover you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if so be that Ruach Elohim dwells in you: but if any has not Ruach Meshiah the same is not his.
The only other place it occurs is in the following statement:
1 Corinthians 7:40
40 But she is happier if she abide as she is, after my judgment: and I think that I also have πνευμα θεου / Ruach Elohim.
However, all flesh is not the same flesh:
1 Corinthians 15:39-44 KJV
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
The natural body in the above passage is soma psuchikos, the spiritual body in the above passage is soma pneumatikos, and the form of the Dove in Luke 3:22 is somatikos which means that the body of the Dove in Luke is somatikos pneumatikos because the passage clearly speaks of the Pneuma [the Hagion] descending as a Dove. Thus the "flesh" of the Dove is of a spiritual nature and a spiritual body which can never have been held by death and never could have "seen corruption", just as the scripture says, (Peter in Acts 2:24-27 quoting from Psalms 16:8-11). Meshiah the Word, (Memra), is not the man Yeshua but the Dove which descended from the heavens and abode-remained upon the man Yeshua throughout his ministry and through Golgotha: anyone who denies it likewise denies that Meshiah has come in the flesh because they have failed to offer up any acceptable explanation for the word somatiko found in Luke 3:22 concerning Ruach Elohim.
marhig
Well-known member
Amen, the kingdom of Elohim is within us, (Luke 17:20-21), but I would add that man is earth and therefore the heart is the adamah or soil of the earth, (Parable of the Sower). Heaven is the mind, (throne of Elohim Most High), and the heart of earth is the altar and throne of David, as it is written, "An altar of adamah shall you make unto Me, (Exodus 20:24). And the Son of Elohim is he that searches the reins and hearts, (Revelation 2:23), thus a man has two thrones; the throne of David which is the soil of the heart, and the throne of the heavens which is the mind. Now therefore we put on the mind of Messiah that we may be pleasing to the Father and the Son is seated in the heavenly places. Store up your treasures in your heavens!
That is yet another place where you are greatly mistaken: saying as you do that Messiah has not yet finished what he came to do the first time. It is no fault but your own that you cannot see how all things concerning Messiah have been fulfilled; and if not then you could not become a new creation. It is only your half of the race that now needs to be completed. Stop viewing everything you desire in physical and natural man terms, seeing all things according to the physical and the flesh, and perhaps you might begin to see. You are no better off than the Talmudists you are railing against. There is so much more that Messiah already accomplished which you in your flesh man paradigm deny. Study the parables, allegories, idioms, and sayings of Yeshua found in the Gospel accounts and peace be upon you.
Well guess what, I believe very like you do.
We have a house meeting where we read the Bible, we say that the mind is like the government, where God gives us his wisdom and understanding, our heart has the altar, and that's where we are sacrificed. We are a living sacrifice and we should be being put to death by the spirit in the heart, denying ourselves and doing the will of God. We say that we are the earth, we are just dust.
God and Christ seated in heavenly places is in our heart, and heavenly treasures is revelation direct to our hearts, wisdom and understanding, God opening our spiritual eyes as ears to see and hear. And the more we walk away from the world and give our hearts to God, the stronger on God we become.
If we put on the mind of Christ, then we will be thinking of and loving the father always, just as he did, and God will bless us with treasures greater than anything this world can offer. Revelation, Wisdom, understanding, a love that brings you to love and care for everyone, whoever they are, and peace in the heart, I'm at peace, and through Jesus Christ I've been freed from the trappings of this world, and I pray to God to keep me and strengthen me when I'm tempted, I don't ever want to be entangled in it again. Those of us who truly know him, are blessed beyond measure, and we will suffer to please him and deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Christ.
I think we will have some interesting talks, nice to meet you
Well guess what, I believe very like you do.
We have a house meeting where we read the Bible, we say that the mind is like the government, where God gives us his wisdom and understanding, our heart has the altar, and that's where we are sacrificed. We are a living sacrifice and we should be being put to death by the spirit in the heart, denying ourselves and doing the will of God. We say that we are the earth, we are just dust.
God and Christ seated in heavenly places is in our heart, and heavenly treasures is revelation direct to our hearts, wisdom and understanding, God opening our spiritual eyes as ears to see and hear. And the more we walk away from the world and give our hearts to God, the stronger on God we become.
If we put on the mind of Christ, then we will be thinking of and loving the father always, just as he did, and God will bless us with treasures greater than anything this world can offer. Revelation, Wisdom, understanding, a love that brings you to love and care for everyone, whoever they are, and peace in the heart, I'm at peace, and through Jesus Christ I've been freed from the trappings of this world, and I pray to God to keep me and strengthen me when I'm tempted, I don't ever want to be entangled in it again. Those of us who truly know him, are blessed beyond measure, and we will suffer to please him and deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow Christ.
I think we will have some interesting talks, nice to meet you
That is a great testimony Marhig, and nice to meet you too. It is amazing how much truth can come forth from a simple love for study, in prayer, truthfully seeking, and washing in the water of the Word, without the trappings and dogmas of any particular church doctrines to hold one back from full immersion into the Word.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
So when I ask you:
you cannot answer the question.
That is of course there is no such a thing in the Tanach.
BTW, where do I say that a messiah came in 408 BC?
Where in the Talmud/Mishna can I find that?
You know nothing of the jewish holy books
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
It's just that I study them in the synagogue 4 hours in the morning, 3 hours in the afternoon, and 1.5 hours in the evening, and that for quite a few years already.
"Thus says Y-H-W-H: ‘In those days ten men from every language of the nations shall grasp the sleeve of a Jewish man, saying, “Let us go with you, for we have heard that God is with you.”
Zech 8:23
beameup
New member
Jews have no respect for the Tanakh, as their "Talmud" is their Holy Writ.
Jews believe that Moses came down from the mountain with the Commandments in one hand and a set of "oral instructions" (oxymoron) in the other.
You have your "oral traditions" which were written down in Babylon (ie: Babylonian Talmud). After 70 A.D. there was a "mad scramble" to rewrite "Judaism" and hide all the BCE doctrinal issues/debates concerning the nature of God and Messiah.
However, an enterprising and seeking person can access that information. One who is "hiding from knowing God" will be repelled at any such search for truth, and end up in the pit.
BTW, you are aware that the rabbis have pronounced a "curse" on you for even reading Daniel 9.
The Bible IS the church box silly! In their communist dictator like need to control, the holy men of the political church created, recreated and rearranged the scripture books, using manipulative fear and guilt in their claim that their conflicted writings were Gods writings! They wove some true events and characters into their speculative, race based worldview and to them, the ends justify the means. Hoghead1 is a theologian, well versed in the conflicted scriptures and their outright flaws.
Oh, so you have no life, that's 8.5 hours per day so you have no job or you don't sleep. What a farce, better get back to your Tanach
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
No. I'm studying Judaism for about 15 years now, but never heard of a curse for reading Daniel 9.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
You think I should let lawless idolatrous pagans teach me what is written in the Jewish holy books??
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
keypurr
Well-known member
You see, somewhat. Why does not the church read the SCRIPTURES for what they say instead of what their traditions teach? Silly me, I expected to much from organized religion.
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keypurr
Well-known member
You are far from truth.
Define who the express image is in Heb 1:3.
Who needed a body prepared for him in Heb 10:5?
Who needed to become flesh?
And what was he before he became flesh?
Who is the son that laid the foundation of the Universe in Heb 1?
Was Jesus born to Mary as a man?
Don't you ever ask questions?
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