Theology Club: Why Will No One in the Neo-MAD Camp Address John 3:16?

[Jerry Shugart]

Let's see if I can play this game. Were I a Neo-MAD adherent, I'd point up first the tense of the word "believe" is in the present, and that the Greek present tense implies something that is continuous, not a one-time past event that could possibly be drifted away from at a given point in the future. It might better be translated, according to some, as "whoever believes and goes on believing." Contrast this with Paul's words in 2 Timothy 2:13, "If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself." The believer in the present dispensation becomes a member of Christ's Body (as opposed to His Bride), and Christ cannot deny Himself even if we lose faith.

To answer you I will quote these words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words received eternal life the second when they believed. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a Jew who lived under the law believed he received eternal life and given the assurance that he will not be judged.

I'd also say the word "believe" here is shorthand for the concept of a saving faith as later illustrated by James in his epistle to the circumcision, and implies those things that are concomitant with a saving faith, which is to say, works.

Please quote one Greek expert who says that the Greek word translated "believe" can mean that.

And let us look how James says here about how one is born of God:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

 

[Danoh]

To answer you I will quote these words of the Lord Jesus spoken to the Jews who lived under the law:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

In this verse the Greek word translated "believes" and the Greek word translated "has" are both in the "present" tense.

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

"The present tense represents a simple statement of fact or reality viewed as occurring in actual time. In most cases this corresponds directly with the English present tense."

Therefore, John 5:24 is saying that those who were believing at the time the Lord Jesus spoke those words received eternal life the second when they believed. That is what is meant as something being "viewed as occuring in actual time."

So once a Jew who lived under the law believed he received eternal life and given the assurance that he will not be judged.

BV you have just earned Jerry's undying gratitude - given him a soap box for one of several of that soap boxes stair steps.

All designed to hold up the man's desperate need to prove others wrong.

Well, undying until he says otherwise, lol

 

[Brother Vinny]

In The Blue Letter Bible we read the following meaning of the present tense:

You mean Strong's Concordance says it; Blue Letter Bible merely references it. To which I shall quote an adage from a friend from long ago who was a Greek expert: "If it's from Strong's, it's probably wrong."

Please quote one Greek expert who says that the Greek word translated "believe" can mean that.

Will need some time. I'm sure I can find some, though.

And let us look how James says here about how one is born of God:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Yeah, that hasn't changed due to dispensation. Notice how the nomenclature of the Body of Christ is completely foreign to James, though. Notice how he addresses the circumcision specifically, while in the Body of Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile.

Your refusal to address how your interpretation of John 3:16 is in tension with Jesus teachings about works, whether good or bad, and their respective rewards, is duly noted.

 

[Brother Vinny]

Interestingly enough, while I haven't (yet) found my Greek experts, I have found something interesting in the context of the verse itself. Further in John, in verse 36, we see (bold emphasis mine):

36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.

Here "believes" is set in opposition, not to "does not believe," but to "does not obey". This falls in line with the idea that "belief" in a Johannine context includes obedience (i.e., good works), and disobedience indicates unbelief and is therefore subject to God's wrath.

Pauline believers, even if they fall away, are part of Christ's Body. The war with God is over.

 

[Danoh]

Yep, BV, never mind, as far as Jerry is concerned, that faith under the Law is still operative in Matthew through John.

Jerry's error is the very error the Lord spoke against as early as Matthew 5:

16. Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
17. Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19. Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20. For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

As well as, as late as Matthew 23:

1. Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2. Saying The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

 

[Tambora]

I have found something interesting in the context of the verse itself. Further in John, in verse 36, we see (bold emphasis mine):



Here "believes" is set in opposition, not to "does not believe," but to "does not obey". This falls in line with the idea that "belief" in a Johannine context includes obedience (i.e., good works), and disobedience indicates unbelief and is therefore subject to God's wrath.

Pauline believers, even if they fall away, are part of Christ's Body. The war with God is over.

Kinda goes along with "devils also believe, and tremble".

 

[Jerry Shugart]

You mean Strong's Concordance says it; Blue Letter Bible merely references it. To which I shall quote an adage from a friend from long ago who was a Greek expert: "If it's from Strong's, it's probably wrong."

Let us look at the meaning that you put on the word "believing at John 5:24:

It might better be translated, according to some, as "whoever believes and goes on believing.

If that is true then no one would be given "eternal life" until the end of a faithful life and the Lord Jesus would have said "will have" instead of "has":

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

I have checked numerous translation of this verse and I have not found even one verse which is translated "will have eternal life." How do you explain that?

Yeah, that hasn't changed due to dispensation. Notice how the nomenclature of the Body of Christ is completely foreign to James, though. Notice how he addresses the circumcision specifically, while in the Body of Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile.

So Paul was in error when he referred to himself as a Jew?:

" For I also am an ISRAELITE, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Ro.11:1).​

Your refusal to address how your interpretation of John 3:16 is in tension with Jesus teachings about works, whether good or bad, and their respective rewards, is duly noted.

If faith plus works were required for salvation then a Jew who lived under the law could believe but yet not be saved until he did the works. But here it says that those who believe HAVE everlasting life:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him[/quote] should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Again, according to those who teach that the Jews who lived under the law must believe and do works to be saved so a Jew could believe and not have everlasting life if they do not the works. But that idea is directly contradicted by what is said at John 3:16.

Here "believes" is set in opposition, not to "does not believe," but to "does not obey". This falls in line with the idea that "belief" in a Johannine context includes obedience (i.e., good works), and disobedience indicates unbelief and is therefore subject to God's wrath.

Pauline believers, even if they fall away, are part of Christ's Body. The war with God is over.

Let us look at these words where it is made clear that those whom John addressed already had eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (Jn.5:11).​

If you are right and the receiving of eternal life was conditional on continuing to believe throught one's lifetime then they wouldn't be told that they already have eternal life.

And here is what the Lord Jesus said about all those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).​

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kinda goes along with "devils also believe, and tremble".

Do you deny that James said that one is born of God by believing and nothing else?:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Do you deny that John says that a Jew is born of God when he believes that Jesus is the Christ?:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (1 Jn.5:1).​

 

[Brother Vinny]

Let us look at the meaning that you put on the word "believing at John 5:24:



If that is true then no one would be given "eternal life" until the end of a faithful life and the Lord Jesus would have said "will have" instead of "has":

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

I have checked numerous translation of this verse and I have not found even one verse which is translated "will have eternal life." How do you explain that?



So Paul was in error when he referred to himself as a Jew?:

" For I also am an ISRAELITE, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin" (Ro.11:1).​

If faith plus works were required for salvation then a Jew who lived under the law could believe but yet not be saved until he did the works. But here it says that those who believe HAVE everlasting life:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

Again, according to those who teach that the Jews who lived under the law must believe and do works to be saved so a Jew could believe and not have everlasting life if they do not the works. But that idea is directly contradicted by what is said at John 3:16.



Let us look at these words where it is made clear that those whom John addressed already had eternal life:

"And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son" (Jn.5:11).​

If you are right and the receiving of eternal life was conditional on continuing to believe throught one's lifetime then they wouldn't be told that they already have eternal life.

And here is what the Lord Jesus said about all those to whom He gives eternal life:

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand" (John 10:28).​

Okay, you've presented your verses, now let's look at the other side, shall we? I mean, did you realize you proof-texted John in complete exclusion to the synoptics? Let's start with Matthew 25:31-46 (ESV, bold emphasis mine):

31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, 36 I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you drink? 38 And when did we see you a stranger and welcome you, or naked and clothe you? 39 And when did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ 40 And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brothers,[a] you did it to me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44 Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45 Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

In each of the bolded instances above, Jesus refers to an action one who purports to follow Him has taken during life. Notice none of those actions have anything to do with believing. Everyone is given rewards--either inheritance of the kingdom or eternal punishment--based on these works.

And this is just the first example.

We have a choice, Jerry. We can assume there's two Jesuses preaching in Israel in the early first century with dramatically identical deaths, burials, and resurrections, and that the synoptics recorded one Jesus while John recorded the other. Or we can try to synthesize a picture of Jesus and His teachings in which the demands for works (and the consequences they carry) recorded in the synoptics are harmonized with John's emphasis on faith.

 

[Danoh]

Do you deny that James said that one is born of God by believing and nothing else?:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Do you deny that John says that a Jew is born of God when he believes that Jesus is the Christ?:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (1 Jn.5:1).​

Whether you are right or wrong; why are you not happy that you believe that?

Why are you so miserable that you have to hound after others all these decades, insisting that they must agree with you on this?

What exactly is it about dead Jews long since gone from this earth believing what you are right or wrong about - what is it about that that has you so miserable that you insist on attempting to drag others down into the cesspool of your desperation?

Nothing else - of all the great marvels the Mystery consists of - can even begin to be explored anywhere on this forum without you coming along to insist all be dropped because Jerry has to vomit his pet peeves all over any and every exploration once more.

Typical of the neurotic, if whatever began to be explored was derailed by you, and as a result, its participation died out, you then begin your own threads on this nonsense you insist on insisting on - on how right you are.

If you are so right; and if this asinine insistence of yours is so right; go out and try and pull that nonsense in actual assemblies; see if you are not thrown out after awhile.

No wonder you haven't an assembly - who in their right might would allow you this constant need of yours to vomit all over any and all parades.

 

[Brother Vinny]

(I declined to mention a third option, and that it to try to harmonize the whole of the New Testament--synoptics with John, Paul with James--but this is the tack Christianity has tried since very early on, and as the problems of doing this are what necessitated mid-Acts dispensationalism in the first place, it would seem going back to this would mean jettisoning the model.)

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Okay, you've presented your verses, now let's look at the other side, shall we?

No, I answered all your comments on the meaning of John 5:24. It is time for you to answer my remarks about those comments.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

It is the Lord's words which bring life and that demonstrates that no works were necessary for salvation in regard to the Jews who lived under the law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

If it took faith plus works for those Jews to be saved then the Lord Jesus' words would not bring life to anyone. But He said that His words are "life."

And here we see that those who believe are saved:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).​

But you say that some were not saved when they believed. According to your ideas a Jew who lived under the law could believed but not be saved. According to you if a Jew believed but yet did not do the works then he would NOT be saved.

I am looking forward to you answer to my remarks about what you said about the meaning of John 5:24 in my last post addressed to you.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Can't wait til Jerry is either banned forever, gets a life, or drops dead.

You are out of control and obviously in need of professional help.

I will no longer respond to anything new which you say because my remarks just make your condition worse.

I pray in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that you will seek help.

 

[Danoh]

You are out of control and obviously in need of professional help.

I will no longer respond to anything new which you say because my remarks just make your condition worse.

I pray in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ that you will seek help.

Lol - And yet, you keep responding to tell me you will no longer be responding.

I am not actually posting to you. Rather; that new posters and readers know what you are up to against those supposedly your own.

Fact is, you are Acts two.

 

[Tambora]

I will no longer respond to anything new which you say because my remarks just make your condition worse.

ROFL!

Empty promise.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Kinda goes along with "devils also believe, and tremble".

Do you deny that James said that one is born of God by believing and nothing else?:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Do you deny that John says that a Jew is born of God when he believes that Jesus is the Christ?:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (1 Jn.5:1).​

Empty promise.

The only things which comes up "empty" are your answers. As usual, you just run and hide from verses which contradict your ideas.

 

[Danoh]

ROFL!

Empty promise.

That's rich; it's my "condition" that his continuing to "no longer respond to" is making worse, lol

 

[Brother Vinny]

No, I answered all your comments on the meaning of John 5:24. It is time for you to answer my remarks about those comments.

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

It is the Lord's words which bring life and that demonstrates that no works were necessary for salvation in regard to the Jews who lived under the law:

"It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

If it took faith plus works for those Jews to be saved then the Lord Jesus' words would not bring life to anyone. But He said that His words are "life."

And here we see that those who believe are saved:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).​

But you say that some were not saved when they believed. According to your ideas a Jew who lived under the law could believed but not be saved. According to you if a Jew believed but yet did not do the works then he would NOT be saved.

I am looking forward to you answer to my remarks about what you said about the meaning of John 5:24 in my last post addressed to you.

Let's just proceed as though you're right about the Johannine verses. I'm more curious about how you harmonize John with the synoptics. If that takes this thread too far afield, let me know and I'll start a new one.

For the record, I agree with Danoh. You sound like an Acts Two dispensationalist.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Let's just proceed as though you're right about the Johannine verses.

So do you concede that I am right that the lord Jesus told the Jews who lived under the law that all they had to do is believe in order to be saved? if not, we must return to your comments about the meaning of John 5:24.

I'm more curious about how you harmonize John with the synoptics. If that takes this thread too far afield, let me know and I'll start a new one.

Start a new thread and I will participate.

You sound like an Acts Two dispensationalist.

Why would you say that? My ideas differ very little from the teaching of the giants of the original Mad, Sir Robert Anderson and J.C. O'Hair.

It is those in the Neo-MAD community who have departed from the sound teaching of those two men and have taken a stand with Bullinger. One of those teachings is the idea that the Jews who lived under the law could not be saved unless they believed and did works.
Another is the idea that the Twelve were not in the Body of Christ and therefore the doctrine found in the epistles of James, John and Peter are not for those in the Body. Here is what J.C. O'Hair said about that teaching:

"Peter and James and ten other apostles are going to sit on twelve thrones and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. (Matthew 19:27 and 28). But I do not agree with Christians who say that the twelve apostles were not members of the Body of Christ...I make no such foolish statement...that these Epistles of Peter and James are not for this age...I use 1 Peter 3:18 in preaching the gospel of grace as frequently as I use any other verse" [emphasis mine] (O'Hair, The Accuser of the Brethren and the Brethren Concerning Bullingerism).​

It is the Neo-MAD believers who are closer to Bullingerism than they are to the teaching within the original MAD community.

Their theology is a perversion of the original MAD.

 

[Pierac]

Do you deny that James said that one is born of God by believing and nothing else?:

"Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures" (Jas.1:18).​

Do you deny that John says that a Jew is born of God when he believes that Jesus is the Christ?:

"Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God" (1 Jn.5:1).​

Your missing the point of your own argument... You post as if belief and faith come from the believer and not God... the chooser of men! ... Where does faith and belief come from? :think:

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."


Faith is a GIFT - Eph 2:8-10 - "For it is by free grace (God's unmerited favor) that you are saved (delivered from judgment and made partakers of Christ's salvation) through [the gift of] faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [of your own doing, it came not through your own striving], but it is the gift of God; Not because of works [not the fulfillment of the Law's demands], lest any man should boast. [It is not the result of what anyone can possibly do, so no one can pride himself in it or take glory to himself.] For we are God's [own] handiwork (His workmanship), recreated in Christ Jesus, [born anew] that we may do those good works which God predestined (planned beforehand) for us [ taking paths which He prepared ahead of time], that we should walk in them [living the good life which He prearranged and made ready for us to live].

What... you think you came to believe all on your own? :doh:


NASB Joh 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

NASB Rom 9:11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad--in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls--12 she was told, "The older will serve the younger."

NASB Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."


You have no idea of what I'm saying do you? :nono:


oly::sherlock:
Paul