Theology Club: Why Will No One in the Neo-MAD Camp Address John 3:16?

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You have no idea of what I'm saying do you?

You are just repeating the same old nonsense of the Calvinists which is easily proven to be false..

Your missing the point of your own argument... You post as if belief and faith come from the believer and not God... the chooser of men! ... Where does faith and belief come from?

You really do not know, do you?:

"So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God" (Ro.10:17).​

Belief is a GIFT - Phil 1:29 - "For you have been granted [the gift] to grant as a favor for Christ's sake not only to believe in (adhere to, rely on, and trust in) Him, but also to suffer in His behalf."

So the Lord only gives some men the so-called gift of faith and the rest of mankind who are not given that faith shall perish? But how do you explain what Paul says here?:

"And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God" (2 Cor.4:3-4).​

The gospel is hidden to those who are perishing and the god of this age, Satan, is responsible for the gospel being hidden from them. Satan blinded their minds to the gospel for one purpose, "so that they cannot see the light of the gospel."

The fact that the minds of those who are perishing can be "blinded" to the gospel proves that they have the ability to see it if their minds were not blinded to it. After all, one must be able to see before being blinded can happen.

This demonstrates that even those who are perishing have the ability to believe the gospel and as a result receive salvation. Therefore, it cannot be denied that the Lord's death and the blessings which flow from that death have the potential to be applied to even those who are perishing.

What... you think you came to believe all on your own?

Not on their own. The gospel comes in the power of the Holy Spirit and therefore it has the power to quicken men who are dead in sin. You seem to think that the Holy Spirit, when combined with the gospel, is impotent to quicken those who are dead in sin.

NASB Mat 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Here we see exactly why some are chosen:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

The gospel is absolutely true and it comes in the Holy Spirit and therefore all men should believe it. However, some resist the Holy Spirit and do not believe. Here is one of the reasons some do not believe, and it is not because they were not given the so-called gift of faith:

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (Jn.3:18-21).​
 

Bright Raven

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Paul Sadler, the President of the Berean Bible Society and one of the chief spokesmen of the Neo-MAD view, says that salvation according to the gospel of circumcision could not be achieved apart from "works":

"We should add that the gospel of the circumcision and the gospel of the kingdom are inseparably bound together. Both are based upon a 'performance system.' It is this program and message that James was laboring under when he wrote his epistle...How often James must have heard one of his countrymen say, 'I believe in God.' But James observed that there were no fruits in his life that substantiated his claim, which was essential under the gospel of the circumcision" [emphasis added] (Sadler, "Studies in the Epistle of James", The Berean Searchlight, January, 2006, p.8-9).​

Pastor Sadler continues, writing that "According to James, Abraham served as a 'pattern' to the circumcision that faith and works were 'required' for salvation under their program" [emphasis added] (Ibid., p.10).

Hoow can that be said since we read here that those who believe are saved:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​

The Neo-MADs on this forum are absolutely convinced that the Jews who lived under the Law could not be saved apart from works. How can they be certain of that with John 3:16 in view.

That verse says that all who "believe" are saved but those in the Neo-MAD camp say the the Jews who lived under the Law could have "faith" but they are not saved unless they do works.

Every time I bring John 3:16 up to the Neo-MADs I never get an answer. They refuse to give their interpretation of the meaning of that verse.

They say that they follow Paul but the certainly do not follow him when he says that he "kept back nothing that was profitable unto you" and "I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God" (Acts 20:20, 27).

Will they continue to run and hide from John 3:16 or will they finally give their interpretation of the meaning of the verse?:

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (Jn.3:16).​
Could it be they look at belief as a work? :idunno:
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Then what is the problem? Where do works come from?

Joel Finck, one of the teachers within the Neo-MAD camp, writes the following:

"The covenant is clearly in full force at the time of Christ...under the covenant, they did have to believe, but their faith had to be demonstrated by their works. In the case of the covenant, they had to be circumcised, and they had to keep the Law" (Finck, Lordship Salvation and the Gospel of the Grace of God, 12-14).​

Unfortunately, Finck fails to understand that those under the law were saved by grace through faith, just as we are:

"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all" (Ro.4:16).​

If it takes works to be saved then that salvation cannot be said tobe by by grace:

"Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt" (Ro.4:4).​
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Jerry has tremendous trouble separating the Jews in the little flock from the Jews that rejected the Lord's earthly message (like Saul) and were only eligible to be saved by Paul's message...and to whom Romans was, in part, written.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Jerry has tremendous trouble separating the Jews in the little flock from the Jews that rejected the Lord's earthly message (like Saul) and were only eligible to be saved by Paul's message...and to whom Romans was, in part, written.

You have a gigantic problem because you do not believe the Scriptures. Here the Savior Himself makes it as plain as possible that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Do you believe what the Lord Jesus said there, that all it takes for the Jews whom He was addressing to be saved was faith and faith alone to be saved?

Or do you stand with those in the Psuedo-MAD camp who insist that they could not be saved by faith alone because they had to believe and do works?

Jerry has tremendous trouble separating the Jews in the little flock from the Jews that rejected the Lord's earthly message (like Saul) and were only eligible to be saved by Paul's message...and to whom Romans was, in part, written.

What does a person have to do to be "eligible" to be saved by Paul's message?
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
You have a gigantic problem because you do not believe the Scriptures. Here the Savior Himself makes it as plain as possible that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Do you believe what the Lord Jesus said there, that all it takes for the Jews whom He was addressing to be saved was faith and faith alone to be saved?

Or do you stand with those in the Psuedo-MAD camp who insist that they could not be saved by faith alone because they had to believe and do works?



What does a person have to do to be "eligible" to be saved by Paul's message?

Why do you mix the Jews that believed the Lord's earthly ministry with those like Saul, who blasphemed?

Is that wise? Is that sound practice?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Why do you mix the Jews that believed the Lord's earthly ministry with those like Saul, who blasphemed?

Why did you change the subject and refuse to answer my question? Are you ashamed of what you believe?:

Here the Savior Himself makes it as plain as possible that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Do you believe what the Lord Jesus said there to the Jews who lived under the Law, that all it takes for the Jews whom He was addressing to be saved was faith and faith alone to be saved?

Or do you stand with those in the Psuedo-MAD camp who insist that they could not be saved by faith alone because they had to believe and do works?

If you continue to refuse to answer then I can only conclude that you are ashamed of your beliefs.
 
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SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
Why did you change the subject and refuse to answer my question? Are you ashamed of what you believe?:

Here the Savior Himself makes it as plain as possible that the Jews who lived under the law were saved by faith and faith alone:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

Do you believe what the Lord Jesus said there to the Jews who lived under the Law, that all it takes for the Jews whom He was addressing to be saved was faith and faith alone to be saved?

Or do you stand with those in the Psuedo-MAD camp who insist that they could not be saved by faith alone because they had to believe and do works?

If you continue to refuse to answer then I can only conclude that you are ashamed of your beliefs.

I believe all of John 5. Do you?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
No you do not. You are saying that what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:29 proves that what He said here is untrue?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

The words at verse 24 spoken by the Lord Jesus explain how one "does good" spoken of at verse 29. In order to "do good" and enter into the resurrection of life one must "believe."

Now tell me how what is said at verse 29 makes the Lord Jesus' words here untrue:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
No you do not. You are saying that what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:29 proves that what He said here is untrue?:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

The words at verse 24 spoken by the Lord Jesus explain how one "does good" spoken of at verse 29. In order to "do good" and enter into the resurrection of life one must "believe."

Now tell me how what is said at verse 29 makes the Lord Jesus' words here untrue:

"Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life" (Jn.5:24).​

I believe it. Do you?

Believing that Jesus is the Christ required following his words, to take part in the New Covenant.

You know this.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
I believe it. Do you?

You don't believe what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24 because He made it plain that the Jews who lived only the law only had to 'believe" to be saved. You deny His words and say that believing was not enough because they had to believe and do works.

The Lord also said that His words are spirit and they are life:

" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to you no one who lived under the law was given life by believing the words of the Lord Jesus because none of them were given life until they believed and later did works.

Once again you prove that you put more faith in what is taught within the Pseudo-MAD camp than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.
 

SaulToPaul 2

Well-known member
You don't believe what the Lord Jesus said at John 5:24 because He made it plain that the Jews who lived only the law only had to 'believe" to be saved. You deny His words and say that believing was not enough because they had to believe and do works.

The Lord also said that His words are spirit and they are life:

" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).​

According to you no one who lived under the law was given life by believing the words of the Lord Jesus because none of them were given life until they believed and later did works.

Once again you prove that you put more faith in what is taught within the Pseudo-MAD camp than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

Once again, Ole Jer fails to read the entire chapter:



John 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

John 6:42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

John 6:43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

John 6:46 Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he which is of God, he hath seen the Father.

John 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

John 6:48 I am that bread of life.

John 6:49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

John 6:50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

John 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

John 6:52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

John 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

John 6:56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

John 6:57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

John 6:58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Once again, Ole Jer fails to read the entire chapter:

All you are doing is highlighting verses in an effort to try to prove that the Lord Jesus said here cannot possibly be right:

" It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life" (Jn.6:63).

According to you no one who lived under the law was given life by believing the words of the Lord Jesus because none of them were given life until they believed and later did works.

Once again you prove that you put more faith in what is taught within the Pseudo-MAD camp than you do in what the Scriptures actually say.

Not only that, but your pride is off the charts because you think that you know more than the Lord Jesus about how men are saved!
 
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