Why men won't marry you

[BOLCATS]

It is always helpful to look in the mirror....

And there is only decency looking back at her. I challenge you to quote her with anything approaching the brutality she faces. Are you blind to brutality when your friends are doing it?

 

[1PeaceMaker]

It is always helpful to look in the mirror....

Would I be a bully if I called a post of A4T's too butch for her to be a female? Would TOL let me get away with that?

yes, you can have the last word on all that, i am confident that everyone sees you for the loon you are - please continue

 

[Red_Dirt]

We have been drawn into this "one size fits all" way of looking at things. Instead of looking at national divorce rates, for example, we should be asking questions like, "Is marriage and family thriving and succeeding, anywhere? And, if so, where and under what conditions?"
That takes the debate away from the One World advocates, who are pleased to see the nation in decay, and points us to the path of hope, not hopelessness.

 

[CabinetMaker]

[Why men won't marry you by Suzanne Venker] "Where have all the husbands gone?

That’s a question Peter Lloyd tackles in a series in London’s Daily Mail about Britain’s marriage rate, which is at its lowest level since 1895. “The state of matrimony is not just ailing. It is dying out faster than a mobile phone battery,” Lloyd writes. “For an army of women, Mr. Right is simply not there, no matter how hard they look for him.”

Things are no better this side of the Atlantic. According to Pew Research Center, the share of American adults who’ve never been married is at an historic high—and men are more likely than women to have never made it down the aisle (23% vs. 17% in 2012).

There was a time when wives respected their husbands. There was a time when wives took care of their husbands as they expected their husbands to take care of them.

What gives? Why are men here and abroad avoiding the altar in spades?

1. Because they can: Men used to marry to have sex and a family. They married for love, too, but they had to marry the girl before taking her to bed, or at least work really, really hard to wear her down. Those days are gone.

When more women make themselves sexually available, the pool of marriageable men diminishes. “In a world where women do not say no, the man is never forced to settle down and make serious choices,” writes George Gilder, author of "Men and Marriage."

Scoff if you wish. Call me a fuddy-duddy. But how’s that new plan working out?

2. Because there’s nothing in it for them: What exactly does marriage offer men today? “Men know there’s a good chance they’ll lose their friends, their respect, their space, their sex life, their money and — if it all goes wrong — their family,” says Helen Smith, Ph.D., author of "Men on Strike." “They don’t want to enter into a legal contract with someone who could effectively take half their savings, pension and property when the honeymoon period is over.Men aren’t wimping out by staying unmarried or being commitment phobes. They’re being smart.”

Unlike women, men lose all power after they say “I do.” Their masculinity dies, too.

What’s left of it, that is. In the span of just a few decades, America has demoted men from respected providers and protectors of the family to superfluous buffoons. Today’s sitcoms and commercials routinely paint a portrait of the idiot husband whose wife is smarter and more capable than he.

There was a time when wives respected their husbands. There was a time when wives took care of their husbands as they expected their husbands to take care of them.

Or perhaps therein lies the rub. If women no longer expect or even want men to “take care of” them — since women can do everything men can do and better, thank you very much, feminism — perhaps the flipside is the assumption that women don’t need to take care of husbands, either. And if no one’s taking care of anyone, why the hell marry?

For women, the reason is obvious: kids. Eventually most women decide they want children, no matter how long they put it off to focus on their careers. So they often nab the best guy they can find, usually the one with whom they’re currently sleeping, and convince him to get married.

If the man refuses, we call him, as Smith notes, a “commitment phobe.” But is that fair? Perhaps these men know all too well that women initiate the vast majority of divorces — anywhere from 65-90 percent, depending on demographics. And when they do, they take the kids with them and hang hubby out to dry with the help of a court system that’s heavily stacked in their favor. In the past, Mom got the kids because she was home with them doing the thankless, unpaid, mountainous work associated with that role. Today, neither parent is home, so there’s no reason the default custodial parent should be Mom.

So remind me, why would a man marry today?

No, really. What’s in it for him?" Article Heb 13:4

My wife and I both had histories before we met. Those histories only increased before we actually got married. It is a long story but it has a happy ending.

Why would a man marry today? What was in it for me? Exactly what I put into it. If am not willing to invest time and effort into my marriage then why would I expect my wife to? If I don't put time and effort into things like work and hobbies and education I get nothing back from them. When I invest time and effort into those things I got a career as an engineer, a good position with a large engineering firm and some really cool pens and pistol grips that I made.

Marriage is the same. If you put nothing into your marriage it will fail. If you pour yourself into your marriage then your marriage will become a great source of peace and joy and comfort. Sounds trite, i know, but it is true. God did not create Eve to Adam's slave, God created Eve to be Adam's helper. When you love and care for your wife, as God intends for men to do, then your wife will love and care for you, as God intends for women to do. Note that that is not a master slave relationship. There will be a leader but its not a dictatorship, it is the husband an wife working together to create a life together.

And it takes dedication and prayer and a willingness to forgive and forget. It means that you must remember the vows you spoke on your wedding day before God and family and friends and honoring those vows.

So what is in it for a man. Becoming a husband who is loved and cherished by his wife because he truly cares for the gift that God gave him. Becoming a father and raising children who will become adults that know how to care for themselves and those around them, who can make a life for themselves and their families, who know and honor God. What is in it for a man? Becoming a real man.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I don't think that was set out clearly and it is a bit confusing. You weren't lonely before you started praying? After your classmates response, etc.?

My memory is a slight bit hazy going back that far, but as I recall I started praying for him after a camp meeting where I talked to a mom with 3 happily married sons that she prayed for. God was reaching me back then. I might even have been 13 when I started praying for him, not sure.

I didn't have classmates back then. I had homeschooler friends I would sometimes write to, hang with on weekends, or whatever.

No, it was a test to see if your hearing was consistent.

If I'm his sheep I will hear his voice. But I'm not going to do a faithless test to check on my hearing. That would indicate my/your doubt that I'm His sheep. And that would produce no results.

It isn't that I don't believe God can and often will move things about for our betterment

Romans 8:28 phrases reality a little more strongly.

but I think the notion you have about that seventy percent is a dangerous assumption

I don't. Why would you assume that they would be seeking God early while He may be found? If they were taught to "go steady" with those they crushed on, then they just might eventually get really involved and stay that way until a premature marriage really seals them in.

What percentage of the youth that get married before 25 strictly avoid dating and losing their purity prior to saying "I do?" Less than 1/3 I believe.

which is why I played the "even one" card. I'm not sure God would put you in a position where that's your conclusion...

Sorry to be slow again, try rephrasing that.

and I don't think He could guarantee a perfect mate, because no one is and no one beyond God will fail to fail us.

Depends on what you mean by perfect and what you mean by fail. There is such a thing as a saint on earth. There is such a thing as a pure hearted person and a peacemaker. If I ask God to give me such a person, I have no reason to not believe He'd answer, if my reasons for wanting him are pure. And I wanted him for the reasons God stated He wanted me to have a good spouse. If a man who finds a good wife finds a good thing and obtains favor from the LORD - same is true for a woman finding a good man.

So it's okay to ask for a husband, but not for discernment of honesty?

Would it be an abuse of prayer to ask to perform miracles for an atheist because he demanded it out of unbelief?

If I believed you would do me harm by lying to me and God agreed, I would ask for discernment and get it. I might even get the discernment without even thinking to ask.

Then you're just talking about growing, not reproduction.

No, I'm not. To put it another way, physical development must be complete. In breeding animals, you must wait for full development. Waiting excessively longer, however, causes fertility and health problems. For humans, that is statistically a 4 year window after full completion of sexual maturation. Menses comes often before ovulation by at least a year or two. Once ovulation is happening childbearing within 4 years time is strictly speaking, biologically wisest. And the fewer ovulations during fertility the better.

A girl could finish with puberty as early as twelve, though on average it's about sixteen.

Most youth have not put away childish things by twelve or sixteen. My kids still play at making doll movies at twelve. Childish things. At 15 they still habitually (and metaphorically) bite off more than they can chew. They must become like Timothy in maturity if they wish to be seen as an adult or a leader. So still in braces, not driving, I think they have a couple more years after 15, at least, before they could get a nod from me for serious courtship to begin.

Sorry, but that's way too early. A girl could enter puberty at ten and be done with puberty by twelve. Guys will take longer and often don't stop growing until they're twenty or twenty one.

But it's not common for girls to be done by twelve and way-far less common for them to have actually put away childish things.

I think this thread has run its course for me and gotten well away from my intention in entering it, which was only to note that people really aren't in a good position to enter into marriage until their mid twenties, a fact underscored by a dramatic failure rate prior. The why of it appears to line up pretty convincingly with the development of the prefrontal cortex and it's established role in judgement.

I will offer this; God actually made a law that described 25 as an age minimum for something. Priesthood. But 50 was the retirement age, too. We can see that God does recognize the differences age makes. But He didn't take the opportunity to make restrictions on marital age.

Some of the rest of the conversation took on a life of its own and might make for a better separate thread, one on miracles and God's interaction with the faithful. I think it could be a productive conversation at some point.

:e4e:

If you ever want to start that thread, be sure to invite me.

 

[Angel4Truth]

My wife and I both had histories before we met. Those histories only increased before we actually got married. It is a long story but it has a happy ending.

Why would a man marry today? What was in it for me? Exactly what I put into it. If am not willing to invest time and effort into my marriage then why would I expect my wife to? If I don't put time and effort into things like work and hobbies and education I get nothing back from them. When I invest time and effort into those things I got a career as an engineer, a good position with a large engineering firm and some really cool pens and pistol grips that I made.

Marriage is the same. If you put nothing into your marriage it will fail. If you pour yourself into your marriage then your marriage will become a great source of peace and joy and comfort. Sounds trite, i know, but it is true. God did not create Eve to Adam's slave, God created Eve to be Adam's helper. When you love and care for your wife, as God intends for men to do, then your wife will love and care for you, as God intends for women to do. Note that that is not a master slave relationship. There will be a leader but its not a dictatorship, it is the husband an wife working together to create a life together.

And it takes dedication and prayer and a willingness to forgive and forget. It means that you must remember the vows you spoke on your wedding day before God and family and friends and honoring those vows.

So what is in it for a man. Becoming a husband who is loved and cherished by his wife because he truly cares for the gift that God gave him. Becoming a father and raising children who will become adults that know how to care for themselves and those around them, who can make a life for themselves and their families, who know and honor God. What is in it for a man? Becoming a real man.

Excellent post - very well said.

 

[Town Heretic]

I was going to leave off, but sometimes a conversation is like popcorn...or the points are and maybe the rest is butter...but the real sort and not that chemical goop you find in some theaters, which is inexcusable when you consider how much you pay for it...but I digress. Continuing a ways together then...

...If I'm his sheep I will hear his voice.

I agree we hear him when we listen. Sometimes I suspect we're speaking at him so loudly we can mistake our desire for an answer. That is to say, while God is never mistaken men sometimes can be, if they don't quiet themselves.

But I'm not going to do a faithless test to check on my hearing.

It isn't my intent or, I think, much different from testing any understanding we take from scripture.

That would indicate my/your doubt that I'm His sheep. And that would produce no results.

I don't agree. It isn't about doubting your faith, supra.

Romans 8:28 phrases reality a little more strongly.

More or less it's the same point. I'm not sure what you're after in the qualification.

I wrote I thought your dismissal of the 70% who end up unhappy and mostly divorced as, essentially, getting what they deserved was uncharitable and not even necessarily true.

I don't.

I know, but it saddens me and I think it's a mistake. You never addressed my response about David's wife or most illustration of where good and we have no reason to suspect less than godly women had their trust abused by a man.

God allows for divorce for the betrayal of vows.

Why would you assume that they would be seeking God early while He may be found? If they were taught to "go steady" with those they crushed on, then they just might eventually get really involved and stay that way until a premature marriage really seals them in.

Do most young marriages arise from that? It would be an interesting inquiry, seeing what the ages on average were between the people marrying young and looking at the wellspring of it.

What percentage of the youth that get married before 25 strictly avoid dating and losing their purity prior to saying "I do?" Less than 1/3 I believe.

:idunno:

Sorry to be slow again, try rephrasing that.

Probably the way I phrased or failed to connect dots. You'd replied about the mass of that majority whose marriages failed and I responded asking if you're suggesting not even one of those women loved God and entered into their marriage with counseling and the belief that the marriage would be blessed and lasting.

Depends on what you mean by perfect and what you mean by fail.

No, I don't think it does. You used perfect. So that would be yours to control, I suppose, though on the whole the word means what it means and I would think in this case someone suited to you in every way. Failure is obvious enough. Not being perfect, not suiting you or failing an obligation to you, from being unkind in a moment to infidelity. The principle that allows for one allows for every, whether the worse comes or not. Just the same, the mechanism of will that allows us to resist one sin is present when we yield to another.

Men fail. Willfully. It's the reason for grace. So we may love our neighbor and still err and curse one who cuts us off at the Winn Dixie before we can grab the parking spot. We may regret the word or two or just the feeling we have for a moment, but there you go. Imperfection.

There is such a thing as a saint on earth.

Depends on what you mean by it and how you think that manifests. I'm sure God wanted you to be properly yoked and I have no doubt that if you asked Him to help you in that (and I'm not doubting you did, only following the rhetorical arc) then He did. But your husband, good as he might be, is still a man. And any man can err or be willfully disobedient, which is why God speaks to correcting even those who are His own.

Would it be an abuse of prayer to ask to perform miracles for an atheist because he demanded it out of unbelief?

In and of itself, likely. That's a stage show. It isn't meant to edify and the better prayer would be for the atheist to be confronted by the reality of God. This is a different thing, a question of edification between two people who love and serve God, on a point that might help or hinder one or the other. But if you're resolute I won't press given we don't actually disagree on the principle or even necessarily on the application, only on a few things related.

No, I'm not.

You have to be, because reproductive puberty can end within two years of the onset for a girl and she can begin that as early as eight, thought the average is higher.

To put it another way, physical development must be complete. In breeding animals, you must wait for full development. Waiting excessively longer, however, causes fertility and health problems. For humans, that is statistically a 4 year window after full completion of sexual maturation.

It's two to four, for girls. And it can, again, begin anywhere from eight years of age to twelve. So if you begin at twelve the four puts you at sixteen. If you begin at ten it could mean twelve to fourteen.

Menses comes often before ovulation by at least a year or two. Once ovulation is happening childbearing within 4 years time is strictly speaking, biologically wisest. And the fewer ovulations during fertility the better.

It's wisest to wait until you're mid twenties if you want the brain that will control your tongue and considerations to be in the shape God designed it to be in order for you to make mature judgments.

Most youth have not put away childish things by twelve or sixteen.

They shouldn't. Can't even, given where their brains are along that line of maturation and where their experience is...they couldn't think like an adult if they wanted to, though they could pretend at it. They aren't truly accountable and competent.

My kids still play at making doll movies at twelve. Childish things. At 15 they still habitually (and metaphorically) bite off more than they can chew. They must become like Timothy in maturity if they wish to be seen as an adult or a leader. So still in braces, not driving, I think they have a couple more years after 15, at least, before they could get a nod from me for serious courtship to begin.

Smiling at the images, but I think letting a child consider marriage is a mistake. And a seventeen year old girl is a child in the most meaningful sense of the word.

I will offer this; God actually made a law that described 25 as an age minimum for something. Priesthood. But 50 was the retirement age, too.

Life was harder, medicine more primitive (to be charitable) and people died earlier then. Perhaps that much power in the life of a man needed limitation too. Mandatory retirement ages are always couched to control against abuse and decline.

We can see that God does recognize the differences age makes. But He didn't take the opportunity to make restrictions on marital age.

He couldn't, really. What I mean is that it would run contrary to the life of his people. In much the same sense our early agrarian society, with relatively primitive medicine, needed people to marry and reproduce early by necessity.

If you ever want to start that thread, be sure to invite me.

I will.

 

[Angel4Truth]

I wrote I thought your dismissal of the 70% who end up unhappy and mostly divorced as, essentially, getting what they deserved was uncharitable and not even necessarily true.

Which is a really bizarre stance to take considering she is married to a man who was divorced before she came along.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

Which is a really bizarre stance to take considering she is married to a man who was divorced before she came along.

Not when you consider it was a secular marriage.

 

[Rusha]

Not when you consider it was a secular marriage.

That doesn't matter. At all. Everything trait you used to describe other divorcees still applies to him.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

I was going to leave off, but sometimes a conversation is like popcorn...or the points are and maybe the rest is butter...but the real sort and not that chemical goop you find in some theaters, which is inexcusable when you consider how much you pay for it...but I digress. Continuing a ways together then...

Indeed. You've been an interesting participant and I actually feel some regret for wasting my time on some of the other posters when I could have answered you better. I might wish to go back to the old incomplete replies I made earlier as I still have some points to hash over still floating in my brain.

And I have to balance that with what's going on around me. So I go slowly, in chunks.

I am going to spend a little time offline today and I want to get back in a while and make a decent response. I'll try, anyway. And then maybe later I can backtrack and pick up loose ends... as I can.

So thank you once again and I hope we can continue a little farther until we tie up a few loose ends.... the internet lets us make conversation much more slowly and I like that.

 

[1PeaceMaker]

That doesn't matter. At all. Everything trait you used to describe other divorcees still applies to him.

Are you following the conversation? I don't think you understand what's going on, really.

 

[bybee]

And there is only decency looking back at her. I challenge you to quote her with anything approaching the brutality she faces. Are you blind to brutality when your friends are doing it?

You are new and ought to be cautious in your conclusions.
My friends are not brutal.

 

[Rusha]

You are new and ought to be cautious in your conclusions.
My friends are not brutal.

The discussion asks a question of "why men won't marry you" which implies that failed marriages are solely the fault of women.

They aren't ... there is no "one size fits all". It would have been more productive to focus on "why marriages fail?"

Oh, and in regards to that whole "brutal" accusations ... you are correct. Brutal no. Honest yes.

 

[BOLCATS]

Which is a really bizarre stance to take considering she is married to a man who was divorced before she came along.

Not bizarre at all if you really understood her claim. She says that it takes a hard heart in one of the spouses who get divorced. She also says only unsaved people have hard hearts. I think she said her husband was not saved at the time and certainly not saved when he chose to marry her. If he didn't have the hard heart, she certainly did. If you can dig up stuff from 9 years ago in an attempt to sow discord in a happy marriage, you certainly have the research skills to find out his Christian state before and during his last marriage. But that kind of thing gets in the way when you want to label someone as bizarre.

 

[Angel4Truth]

The discussion asks a question of "why men won't marry you" which implies that failed marriages are solely the fault of women.

They aren't ... there is no "one size fits all". It would have been more productive to focus on "why marriages fail?"

Oh, and in regards to that whole "brutal" accusations ... you are correct. Brutal no. Honest yes.

Or brutally honest :angel:

 

[Rusha]

Or brutally honest :angel:

Always ...

 

[Angel4Truth]

Not bizarre at all if you really understood her claim. She says that it takes a hard heart in one of the spouses who get divorced.

It takes 2 to marry and 2 to divorce.

She also says only unsaved people have hard hearts. I think she said her husband was not saved at the time and certainly not saved when he chose to marry her. If he didn't have the hard heart, she certainly did. If you can dig up stuff from 9 years ago in an attempt to so discord in a happy marriage, you certainly have the research skills to find out his Christian state before and during his last marriage. But that kind of thing gets in the way when you want to label someone as bizarre.

Saying that she wanted her husband to try polygamy in their marriage is sowing discord? What also does when it was said, have ANYTHING to do with it being said (she shouldnt have lied and denied it was said, and demanded me quote it)

She said it and he repeated it, if that sows discord, they need to be talking to each other about it and talking to each other about what they tell others about one another.

She is bizarre, to claim she knows why other people divorce and that something is wrong with them overall if they do.

In other words she needs to limit her claims on the personal lives of others to what they say, instead of what she imagines.

I base what i think of others here on their words and if her husband wants to knock her to others, its certainly not my fault.

 

[bybee]

It takes 2 to marry and 2 to divorce.




Saying that she wanted her husband to try polygamy in their marriage is sowing discord? What also does when it was said, have ANYTHING to do with it being said (she shouldnt have lied and denied it was said, and demanded me quote it)

She said it and he repeated it, if that sows discord, they need to be talking to each other about it and talking to each other about what they tell others about one another.

She is bizarre, to claim she knows why other people divorce and that something is wrong with them overall if they do.

In other words she needs to limit her claims on the personal lives of others to what they say, instead of what she imagines.

I base what i think of others here on their words and if her husband wants to knock her to others, its certainly not my fault.

Well said!

 

[Rusha]

It takes 2 to marry and 2 to divorce.

Saying that she wanted her husband to try polygamy in their marriage is sowing discord? What also does when it was said, have ANYTHING to do with it being said (she shouldnt have lied and denied it was said, and demanded me quote it)

She said it and he repeated it, if that sows discord, they need to be talking to each other about it and talking to each other about what they tell others about one another.

She is bizarre, to claim she knows why other people divorce and that something is wrong with them overall if they do.

In other words she needs to limit her claims on the personal lives of others to what they say, instead of what she imagines.

I base what i think of others here on their words and if her husband wants to knock her to others, its certainly not my fault.

Exactly.