Why Homosexuality MUST Be Recriminalized! Part 7

[Idolater]

Eh, I'd presumed with the departure of aCW, that that would be the last of this saga until Idolater decided to resurrect it...

Oh you're welcome Arthur!

 

[Idolater]

That didn't answer my question. There's a separation of church and state and one verse from the OT doesn't justify what some propose on here. Some people are gay, it's as simple as that. Nobody else's business if they have relationships.

A lot of users do not accept the legitimacy of this institution. BTW how does England do the separation of religion and state, what with your monarch being the head of your country's official religion there? It's just by there being no laws that are only because a religion wants them, right? Even your state's religion? That's what we have in the US too. This thread isn't about the separation of religion and state. It's about whether we as a polity want to 'recriminalize' ΠΟΡΝ (biblical word) in one of its forms.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I don't spend too much time on "thought provoking" replies to you, since you don't think much anyway.

Nope, they are not like me. They are sex perverts and I'm not.

No, that would be adultery.

If you love a sex pervert... tell them the TRUTH. God finds their behavior to be an abomination.

Read the Bible. God's thoughts on these subjects are in there.

Indeed, your belief's are disorganized.

God designed sex for a marriage relationship between a man and a women. Within that God ordained arrangement sex can be enjoyed and children created.

Well, rather more than you although it helps not being shackled to a belief system that does away with critical thinking.

No, they're just people, your little sensibilities notwithstanding.

That's not the truth, it's just you being all pompous and judgemental again and imagining that you're a mouthpiece for God. I certainly wouldn't tell them your brand of 'truth'. A woman friend of mine has been happily married to another woman for a few years and was in a monogamous relationship with her for a good while before that. She didn't choose to be gay, she just found other women attractive, as simple as that.

Already told ya, I've read it, the full NT anyway, not all of the Old. The fundamentalism the likes of which you espouse is a separate entity and akin to the religious legalism as described in the Bible so your branch of far right bunk about executing homosexuals can be dismissed accordingly.

Ironically, it's 'organised religion' that is disorganised, which again, is an advantage to not be part of.

 

[Arthur Brain]

A lot of users do not accept the legitimacy of this institution. BTW how does England do the separation of religion and state, what with your monarch being the head of your country's official religion there? It's just by there being no laws that are only because a religion wants them, right? Even your state's religion? That's what we have in the US too. This thread isn't about the separation of religion and state. It's about whether we as a polity want to 'recriminalize' ΠΟΡΝ (biblical word) in one of its forms.

Pretty simple really. People are free to worship, go to church if they want or not. There's no hardline stance take by the queen, in fact there's not much power the monarchy have in this day and age. Far removed from the times of Henry VIII. There's no way any such law as proposed here would have the remotest possibility of coming about as it could only be enacted through far right religion and it would have zero chance of being passed either at local level or parliament. Politicians wouldn't touch such a bill with a bargepole let alone pass it to be considered at higher levels.

 

[Idolater]

Here's some grist for our mill:

...
Homosexuality Not Just a Sin But a Crime: To "legitimize" is to declare something legally valid. Christian leaders widely yet tragically legitimize this gross sexual perversion. For 3,500 years Judeo-Christian legal jurisprudence has recognized homosexuality not just as a sin but also a crime. The Christian who claims that homosexuality should be legal is not only disagreeing with Jesus, Moses, and Paul, he's also siding with Hollywood, Hillary, the homosexuals, and Humanists. Only in the 1960s did the U.S. begin decriminalizing homosexuality, whereas, for example, when Thomas Jefferson was governor of Virginia homosexuality was a capital crime, and execution was also the punishment called for in the early American law book called The Massachusettes Body of Liberties.

...
Porneia: The Greek word porneia is more expansive than the term for adultery. English Bible versions often translate it with the word fornication. It covers sexual sin generally and so includes adultery, fornication, homosexuality, prostitution, transgenderism, pornography, etc. The Bible uses the word porneia to refer to sexual aberrations such as homosexuality and incest (Rom. 1:29; 1 Cor. 5:1).


SOURCE: https://kgov.com/homosexuality-debate-bob-enyart-vs-wayne-besen

 

[Right Divider]

Well, rather more than you although it helps not being shackled to a belief system that does away with critical thinking.

I critical think just fine. It is you that has issue with thinking.

No, they're just people, your little sensibilities notwithstanding.

You're so cute with your "little sensibilities" insult.

That's not the truth, it's just you being all pompous and judgemental again and imagining that you're a mouthpiece for God.

Just read HIS BOOK. I'm not the one judging, God is.

I certainly wouldn't tell them your brand of 'truth'. A woman friend of mine has been happily married to another woman for a few years and was in a monogamous relationship with her for a good while before that. She didn't choose to be gay, she just found other women attractive, as simple as that.

Sexual perversion does make some people happy. It's still sexual perversion.

Already told ya, I've read it, the full NT anyway, not all of the Old.

Well there you go. You have an incomplete picture of God's principles.

The fundamentalism the likes of which you espouse is a separate entity and akin to the religious legalism as described in the Bible so your branch of far right bunk about executing homosexuals can be dismissed accordingly.

Ironically, it's 'organised religion' that is disorganised, which again, is an advantage to not be part of.

I'm not part of any so-called "organized religion", I just believe what God says.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I critical think just fine. It is you that has issue with thinking.

You're so cute with your "little sensibilities" insult.

Just read HIS BOOK. I'm not the one judging, God is.

Sexual perversion does make some people happy. It's still sexual perversion.

Well there you go. You have an incomplete picture of God's principles.

I'm not part of any so-called "organized religion", I just believe what God says.

Not really. If your critical thinking skills operated 'just fine' you wouldn't have associated me with the far left for starters. The only sensible thing you did on that score was run away from it.

Hardly 'cute', more of an observation and hardly solely applicable to you in fairness.

Um, no, it's just you as you do with your ignorant following.

My friend did not 'choose' to be gay. I'm presuming that the only virtuous thing she could do in your view would be to be celibate and live a life of abstinence with no romantic partner, right? Or else, live a lie and 'choose' to be with a man? Wouldn't alter her attraction just the same as with anyone else. She's a human being, not some bigoted label you might want to attach to her.

So I don't know or memorized who begat who and such, I've got a complete enough picture thanks and it sure doesn't tie in with the likes of far right fundamentalism that you advocate. At the risk of the 'appeal to popularity fallacy, most of Christendom doesn't tie it in either, with good reason.

Well, fundamentalism is hardly organised so will give ya that one.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Here's some grist for our mill:

...
Homosexuality Not Just a Sin But a Crime: To "legitimize" is to declare something legally valid. Christian leaders widely yet tragically legitimize this gross sexual perversion. For 3,500 years Judeo-Christian legal jurisprudence has recognized homosexuality not just as a sin but also a crime. The Christian who claims that homosexuality should be legal is not only disagreeing with Jesus, Moses, and Paul, he's also siding with Hollywood, Hillary, the homosexuals, and Humanists. Only in the 1960s did the U.S. begin decriminalizing homosexuality, whereas, for example, when Thomas Jefferson was governor of Virginia homosexuality was a capital crime, and execution was also the punishment called for in the early American law book called The Massachusettes Body of Liberties.

...
Porneia: The Greek word porneia is more expansive than the term for adultery. English Bible versions often translate it with the word fornication. It covers sexual sin generally and so includes adultery, fornication, homosexuality, prostitution, transgenderism, pornography, etc. The Bible uses the word porneia to refer to sexual aberrations such as homosexuality and incest (Rom. 1:29; 1 Cor. 5:1).


SOURCE: https://kgov.com/homosexuality-debate-bob-enyart-vs-wayne-besen

How often did Jesus make mention of homosexuality during His ministry on earth?

Thankfully, Western society at least isn't subject to laws based on religious fundamentalism and never will be either.

 

[Right Divider]

My friend did not 'choose' to be gay.

God says that your friend's homosexual activity is an abomination.
God made the woman for the man and the man for the women. Anything else is sexual perversion.
I'll go with God any day over your objections.

I'm presuming that the only virtuous thing she could do in your view would be to be celibate and live a life of abstinence with no romantic partner, right?

Anything is preferable to opposing God.

Or else, live a lie and 'choose' to be with a man?

Anything is preferable to opposing God.

Wouldn't alter her attraction just the same as with anyone else.

Her attraction is perverse and opposed to God's order of things.

She's a human being, not some bigoted label you might want to attach to her.

I don't have to label people, but I can see their actions.

So I don't know or memorized who begat who and such,

There is a LOT more to the old testament scriptures than a few genealogies.

I've got a complete enough picture thanks and it sure doesn't tie in with the likes of far right fundamentalism that you advocate.

What was that you said about "some bigoted label you might want to attach".

At the risk of the 'appeal to popularity fallacy, most of Christendom doesn't tie it in either, with good reason.

As you well know, appeals to popularity are fallacies. You have no shame is being fallacious.

Well, fundamentalism is hardly organised so will give ya that one.

What was that you said about "some bigoted label you might want to attach".

 

[Arthur Brain]

God says that your friend's homosexual activity is an abomination.
God made the woman for the man and the man for the women. Anything else is sexual perversion.
I'll go with God any day over your objections.

Anything is preferable to opposing God.

Anything is preferable to opposing God.

Her attraction is perverse and opposed to God's order of things.

I don't have to label people, but I can see their actions.

There is a LOT more to the old testament scriptures than a few genealogies.

What was that you said about "some bigoted label you might want to attach".

As you well know, appeals to popularity are fallacies. You have no shame is being fallacious.

What was that you said about "some bigoted label you might want to attach".

Rather, you'll go with your own legalism and your post 'exemplifies' all the traits of far right fundamentalism. Full of condemnatory judgement, pomposity, self righteousness, legalese, anything but love, compassion, understanding. The equivalent of the pharisees and the teachers of the law who cared nary a whit about people but rather their own perceived brand of virtue.

My friend isn't trying to 'oppose' anybody and you ain't her judge and nor are you in any position to say she's opposing God. People like you who call for the deaths of people for not conforming to your idea of how people should live their lives are not speaking on behalf of God. The reason why the majority of Christendom doesn't agree with the minority albeit vocal element of far right fundamentalism is because it's the antithesis of it. Pathetic.

 

[Right Divider]

Rather, you'll go with your own legalism and your post 'exemplifies' all the traits of far right fundamentalism.

There is nothing legalistic about it.
I couldn't care less about your opinion of my "fundamentalism".

You believe that people are right and God is wrong. You are wrong.

Full of condemnatory judgement, pomposity, self righteousness, legalese, anything but love, compassion, understanding.

You are a false accuser. But I expect that from people like you. You don't know right and wrong because you ignore your Creator.

The equivalent of the pharisees and the teachers of the law who cared nary a whit about people but rather their own perceived brand of virtue.

You're full of hot air. You are significantly contributing to global warming.

My friend isn't trying to 'oppose' anybody and you ain't her judge and nor are you in any position to say she's opposing God.

Your friend is a sex pervert but you don't love her enough to tell her the truth.

People like you who call for the deaths of people for not conforming to your idea of how people should live their lives are not speaking on behalf of God.

Again, not my ideas. You seems to be too stupid to understand that YOU are claiming to represent God.

The reason why the majority of Christendom doesn't agree with the minority albeit vocal element of far right fundamentalism is because it's the antithesis of it. Pathetic.

The majority of Christendom is either heretical or wishy-washy. What would you know about truth? You reject God's Word on the matter.

 

[Arthur Brain]

There is nothing legalistic about it.
I couldn't care less about your opinion of my "fundamentalism".

You believe that people are right and God is wrong. You are wrong.

You are a false accuser. But I expect that from people like you. You don't know right and wrong because you ignore your Creator.

You're full of hot air. You are significantly contributing to global warming.

Your friend is a sex pervert but you don't love her enough to tell her the truth.

Again, not my ideas. You seems to be too stupid to understand that YOU are claiming to represent God.

The majority of Christendom is either heretical or wishy-washy. What would you know about truth? You reject God's Word on the matter.

Yes, there is, all too typical of such an extreme belief system.

Nope. Taking issue with far right fundamentalists isn't the equivalent of saying that people are right and God is wrong, far from it.

Thanks for blowing up another irony meter.

Nope, she's a human being and the truth is that you're just a pompous, self righteous judge on a high horse. You're probably one of these loons who insist she 'chose' to be gay as well? She didn't btw.

Enforcing the laws the likes that you and others would have enacted most certainly is the realm of your ideas and the far right fringe. Thankfully that's as far as they'll get.

Well, to a far right fundamentalist I suppose the majority of Christendom would have to be heretical really as most wouldn't entertain the extremes of putting people to death for being gay and the like. Fortunately the majority are sane and exhibit the traits of love, understanding etc as oppose to self righteous judgment and bile.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, there is, all too typical of such an extreme belief system.

Believe God and taking Him at His Word is an extreme belief system. I'm not ashamed of agreeing with the Creator of all things.

Nope. Taking issue with far right fundamentalists isn't the equivalent of saying that people are right and God is wrong, far from it.

Thanks for blowing up another irony meter.

The only one smoking the irony meter here is you.

Nope, she's a human being and the truth is that you're just a pompous, self righteous judge on a high horse. You're probably one of these loons who insist she 'chose' to be gay as well? She didn't btw.

God says that sexual perversion is wrong. You can make all of the silly claims that you want against Him. Doesn't bother me, but He'll school you in the end.

Enforcing the laws the likes that you and others would have enacted most certainly is the realm of your ideas and the far right fringe. Thankfully that's as far as they'll get.

Allowing gross sin is what got Israel in trouble many times. They had your wrong attitude about Gods rules.

Well, to a far right fundamentalist I suppose the majority of Christendom would have to be heretical really as most wouldn't entertain the extremes of putting people to death for being gay and the like. Fortunately the majority are sane and exhibit the traits of love, understanding etc as oppose to self righteous judgment and bile.

Again you FALSELY ACCUSE. I never said that "the majority of Christendom is heretical". What I said was:

"The majority of Christendom is either heretical or wishy-washy."

You are a habitual liar and should stop it.

 

[Arthur Brain]

Believe God and taking Him at His Word is an extreme belief system. I'm not ashamed of agreeing with the Creator of all things.

The only one smoking the irony meter here is you.

God says that sexual perversion is wrong. You can make all of the silly claims that you want against Him. Doesn't bother me, but He'll school you in the end.

Allowing gross sin is what got Israel in trouble many times. They had your wrong attitude about Gods rules.

Again you FALSELY ACCUSE. I never said that "the majority of Christendom is heretical". What I said was:

You are a habitual liar and should stop it.

There's noting to Biblically support that God would want the types of laws that you and others would have enforced on all of society. Simple as. Rules given to tribes in ancient times scarcely count.

Nope.

I'm not making any silly claims against Him and you're in no position to say who'll be schooled regardless. You are in no way qualified to talk about truth or how God will judge.

Pompous legalists who exhibit nothing in the way of love, compassion and understanding don't fare very well RD.

Oh get a grip captain pedantic. There was no false accusation so quit lying about me being a habitual liar. So I missed the 'wishy washy' bit out, it was an oversight and hardly makes much difference anyway. The majority of Christendom displays the characteristics that you assuredly don't.

 

[Right Divider]

There's noting to Biblically support that God would want the types of laws that you and others would have enforced on all of society.

It's right there in the BIBLE you silly loser.

Simple as. Rules given to tribes in ancient times scarcely count.

So you think that God has abandoned His basic principles. You are a huge loser.

Nope.

I'm not making any silly claims against Him and you're in no position to say who'll be schooled regardless. You are in no way qualified to talk about truth or how God will judge.

Pompous legalists who exhibit nothing in the way of love, compassion and understanding don't fare very well RD.

You think that love is approving of whatever people like. You are a big time loser.

Oh get a grip captain pedantic. There was no false accusation so quit lying about me being a habitual liar.

You twisted what I said to make it look like something that I DID NOT SAY!

So I missed the 'wishy washy' bit out, it was an oversight and hardly makes much difference anyway.

You're sloppy with your reading and thinking.

The majority of Christendom displays the characteristics that you assuredly don't.

You have no argument, so you fall back on this nonsense again and again.

If you love someone... you tell them the TRUTH.

THE TRUTH is that God hates sexual perversion (among other gross sins).

 

[Arthur Brain]

It's right there in the BIBLE you silly loser.

So you think that God has abandoned His basic principles. You are a huge loser.

You think that love is approving of whatever people like. You are a big time loser.

You twisted what I said to make it look like something that I DID NOT SAY!

You're sloppy with your reading and thinking.

You have no argument, so you fall back on this nonsense again and again.

If you love someone... you tell them the TRUTH.

THE TRUTH is that God hates sexual perversion (among other gross sins).

Maybe it would just be easier to break this down to basics.

There's all manner of things that are advocated that people think are 'Godly' or 'endorsed' by God. From executing homosexuals/adulterers to forcing co-habiting couples into marriage with no possibility of divorce to trying, convicting and executing children as young as five for 'capital crimes'. All manner else under the extremist banner, like the notion that God rejoices when people die of cancer etc. All believed by people who point to the Bible for their views. As such, all can be dismissed accordingly. Religious extremism is one of the banes of this world and what you promote is nothing short. Condemnation and judgement in spades, love - nowhere to be seen, the single most important attribute outlined in the very same book.

The same applies to 'heresy'. What's such to you is Godly to others and yours is heresy to them. It just goes on. Sure, you tell them the truth as I would if questioned. To give short shrift to religious extremism and those who promote it.

 

[Idolater]

How often did Jesus make mention of homosexuality during His ministry on earth?

Twice. Just in the first book of the New Testament! Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9.

...
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of ΠΟΡΝ, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

...
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for ΠΟΡΝ, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
...

'ΠΟΡΝ' is the Greek for 'perversion'.

Thankfully, Western society at least isn't subject to laws based on religious fundamentalism and never will be either.

If ΠΟΡΝ is recriminalized, it won't be because of fundamentalism, it will be because we all democratically are persuaded that it is a crime, based on self evidence, that's liberalism. And if not that, it will be because we all democratically agree that it's unethical and so we're going to paternalistically impose our ethics on everybody, that's conservativism. There isn't another option.

 

[ok doser]

Twice. Just in the first book of the New Testament! Matthew 5:32 and Matthew 19:9.

...
But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of ΠΟΡΝ, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

...
And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for ΠΟΡΝ, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.
...

'ΠΟΡΝ' is the Greek for 'perversion'.

If ΠΟΡΝ is recriminalized, it won't be because of fundamentalism, it will be because we all democratically are persuaded that it is a crime, based on self evidence, that's liberalism. And if not that, it will be because we all democratically agree that it's unethical and so we're going to paternalistically impose our ethics on everybody, that's conservativism. There isn't another option.

Can't it be both?

 

[Right Divider]

Maybe it would just be easier to break this down to basics.

There's all manner of things that are advocated that people think are 'Godly' or 'endorsed' by God.

Lev 20:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

The same applies to 'heresy'. What's such to you is Godly to others and yours is heresy to them.

Your are lost in a world of relativity and cannot tell truth from error.

 

[ok doser]

Lev 20:13 (AKJV/PCE)
(20:13) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood [shall be] upon them.

Seems pretty clear to me