Why Don't the Liberals Want a Wall?

The Barbarian

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L.A. Times April, 2014
Until recent years, most people caught illegally crossing the southern border were simply bused back into Mexico in what officials called "voluntary returns," but which critics derisively termed "catch and release." Those removals, which during the 1990s reached more 1 million a year, were not counted in Immigration and Customs Enforcement's deportation statistics.

Now, the vast majority of border crossers who are apprehended get fingerprinted and formally deported. The change began during the George W. Bush administration and accelerated under Obama. The policy stemmed in part from a desire to ensure that people who had crossed into the country illegally would have formal charges on their records.

In the Obama years, all of the increase in deportations has involved people picked up within 100 miles of the border, most of whom have just recently crossed over. In 2013, almost two-thirds of deportations were in that category.


So it's mostly a matter of what you want. If you just want to stop those entries, then we already have what we need.

And it shows:

percent-duration-lines-460.png


Blue line is number of illegal aliens here longer than 19 years; grey line the number here less than 5 years.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/06/us/politics/undocumented-illegal-immigrants.html

Most of the illegal immigrants in the U.S. are now long-term residents, not recent arrivals. The "Obama Effect" was primarily the focus on stopping further illegal immigration, and focusing deportations primarily on illegal aliens who had committed serious crimes.

And it worked.

Here's the bad news.

Illegal immigration is trending upward again, as the focus under Trump was less border security and more emphasis on removing long-term residents who are here illegally.

And there's this:
visa-overstays-Artboard_1.png

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/06/us/politics/undocumented-illegal-immigrants.html

Notice that most illegal aliens are those who came here legally and overstayed their visas. (blue line)

The wall is irrelevant to the majority of illegal aliens. No matter how good it is, it won't hinder them in the least.
 

The Barbarian

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your link says you're an idiot:


Additionally, the European Union, if taken as a whole, would be the biggest U.S. trading partner – by far.


Barbarian checks:
From your source:

The United States had $686 billion in total (two ways) goods trade with the European Union during 2016, its largest Goods trade partner.

And yet, it says North American Free Trade zone does 1.14 Trillon dollars of trade with the United States.

Apples to apples. Better than your apples to sour grapes, um? Next time, read the fine print.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
doser, enjoying a conversation with Crucifer, notes:
... europe (is) our largest trading partner (depending on how you measure that)...

barbie, who's been told point blank by the owner of the site that he's not welcome, makes an idiotic statement:
Not even close. Collectively, Europe comes in 4th after China, Canada, and Mexico.

doser notes that the link barbie provided clearly and simply puts the lie to his idiocy:
your link says you're an idiot:


Additionally, the European Union, if taken as a whole, would be the biggest U.S. trading partner – by far.


barbie hastily tries to rearrange the playing board:
Barbarian checks:
From your source:

no, you idiot -it's your source, the one you provided



And yet, it says North American Free Trade zone does 1.14 Trillon dollars of trade with the United States.

now you're talking about NAFTA?

what happened to China, Canada, and Mexico?


wot a tard :nono:


take a hint barbie and go away - find a discussion board where you're welcome

knight made it very clear:
The Barbarian is a jerk who has posted on TOL for years and when he makes a database wasting post he exposes himself to possible banishment. Heck it wouldn't hurt my feeling at all to permanently ban him.
 

The Barbarian

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Barbarian shows that no nation in Europe is as large a trading partner as the United States and that the European Union is not as large a trading partner as NAFTA)

He offers a cogent argument:
wot a tard

Don't get mad; get smart.

You didn't realize this, because you were suckered into making a faulty comparison. No nation in Europe is as large a trading partner with us as either other NAFTA nations, and the European Union isn't as large a trading partner as NAFTA.

Apples to apples. Better than apples to sour grapes, um? Next time, read the fine print.

And you might stop being so easy to set off. Whenever you lose it and get abusive,it broadcasts to everyone here that you lost the argument.

take a hint barbie and go away

It's pretty clear that I can't talk to you without getting you upset. So I'll stop. You have a good day now, and God bless your crabby little heart.
 

WizardofOz

New member
Liberals don't want a wall because it's only real point is just to be a monument to fear or prejudice. It's not going to solve the problem of illegals coming in, you have to shut off some major valves in your brain to figure illegals aren't going to get over it just because it's newer and taller- people that travel through desert and hop rivers are going to get through and because you can't competently supervise 2000 miles it'll be of little more effort to succeed.

But liberals still want funding for border security, do they not? They may have a different philosophy with Trump currently but funding for border fences have been approved by democrats in the past.

There's a reason why nobody was talking about a wall before Trump, and there's a reason why Trump brought it up in the first place- basically just used it to make you feel like the world is the enemy and that it's necessary to follow him over Democrats who work with others.

We'll find out tomorrow when dems take control of the house. How much funding should Trump expect to see in the budget for border security? What's a fair number, in your opinion?

If he had never mentioned it I doubt he would even concern himself with it- this is all just to say he fulfilled that 'campaign promise' for the next term which is lame because it's not even something people were concerned about before he mentioned it.

People in AZ and TX have been concerned with it for some time. What will be effective in curtailing the flow of illegal immigrants is the debate. No one is saying that nothing should be done.

Are you saying that?
 

Stripe

Teenage Adaptive Ninja Turtle
LIFETIME MEMBER
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Progressive senile dementia is a frightening thing to watch, eh?

Especially in a subject whose cognitive skills were lacking to begin with
Does dementia explain what he seems to believe about the Chinese alphabet?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
They're 91st in GDP per capita.

yes, and i'd be very interested to see how their "wealth disparity" shakes out, compared to ours

i suspect their version of the "1%" is much tighter

Recently remittances from the US overtook the oil industry as their largest source of income.

amazing, isn't it?

of course, a lot of that is due to relatively low energy prices - one reason Venezuela sank


Do you think the cartel phenomenon is something unique historically?

an interesting question - i don't know a whole lot about it - or were you speaking in broader, more historical terms, outside the Mexican phenomenon?
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Mexico is our bordering country and the connection between us and an entire continent.

i suspect that shipping from south America is more heavily reliant on maritime than trucking

and travel is almost wholly aviation

It's very important to do more with it. It matters far more than anything across an ocean. If it's 'America first' than why are you trying to spend so much time with securing Israel or helping Europe?

addressed, and i do apologize for the detour around the retarded troll

Instead you just want to mess with all that and put up a border wall, which will not be very effective, hoping that immigrants will just stop coming in.

i'm hoping that it will reduce the numbers of illegal immigrants making it across the border without getting caught

i don't expect it will reduce the demand for immigration northward

These are people in poverty- they're not going to stop unless you improve their conditions and get Mexico back on track. Once that happens, Mexico can help keep maintain migrants and populations.

first of all, was mexico ever "on track"?

secondly, we have our own "people in poverty" to deal with

thirdly, what does "back on track" mean? what would that look like?

It doesn't matter how impossible you want to try and make that seem, that's the only solution and simply obsessing over a border wall just makes America look insecure and scared.
Not really good PR for the supposed 'greatest country in the world'.

i'm not all that fussed over the claimed "PR"

and i'm fine with putting a cork in the bottle at the Mexican border - let the Mexicans secure their own populations and their own southern borders
 
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ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond
Liberals don't want a wall because it's only real point is just to be a monument to fear or prejudice.

is that really what liberals think?

do you know of ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD that doesn't control it's borders?

do you know of ANY OTHER COUNTRY IN THE WORLD that doesn't control immigration across its borders?

... you can't competently supervise 2000 miles ...

if you believe that, why have any border security at all?
 

jgarden

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Famous Border Walls

1. The Sumerians’ Amorite Wall
- during the 21st century B.C., the ancient Sumerian rulers Shulgi and Shu-Sin constructed a massive fortified barrier to keep out the Amorites, a group of nomadic tribesmen who had been making incursions into Mesopotamia.
- believed to have stretched for over a hundred miles between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers in what is now Iraq
- only succeeded in fending off the Sumerians’ enemies for a few years.
- hostile invaders either penetrated the wall or simply walked around
- after the destruction of the city of Ur around 2000 B.C., Sumerian culture began to vanish from history.

2. The Long Walls of Athens
- around 461 B.C., the Athenians sought to correct its vulnerability by constructing a series of barriers to connect the city center to the vital harbors of Piraeus and Phalerum
- the city was later forced to surrender after its navy was defeated at sea
- the victorious Spartans are then said to have dismantled the hated Long Walls to the sound of celebratory music from flute girls
- the barriers were later rebuilt, however, and continued to stand until 86 B.C., when they were destroyed by the Roman general Sulla.

3. The Great Wall of Gorgan
- also known as the “Red Snake” for its distinctive red-colored bricks, the “Great Wall of Gorgon” was a 121-mile rampart that extended from the southern coast of the Caspian Sea to the Elburz Mountains in what is now Iran
- built by the Sasanian Persians sometime around the 5th century A.D.and was one of the longest walls of antiquity and boasted more than 30 forts, a garrison of 30,000 troops and a network of canals that acted as both a water supply system and a defensive moat
- little is known about the wall’s history except that it ultimately failed to protect the Persians from further conquest

4. Hadrian’s Wall
- around 122 A.D., the Emperor Hadrian ordered the construction of a stone barrier to protect Roman Britain from the Picts and the other “barbarian” tribes that inhabited northern England and Scotland
- Hadrian’s Wall” was a 73-mile rampart that stretched from the Solway Firth on the western coast to the mouth of the River Tyne in the east
- with the decline of the Roman Empire the wall failed to serve as a deterrent

5. The Great Wall of China
- China’s legendary Great Wall is actually a collection of stone, wood and earthen barricades that meander for thousands of miles from the Gobi Desert to the North Korean border.
- construction began in the 3rd century B.C. but the most famous sections were erected between the 14th and 17th centuries A.D. to defend the Ming Dynasty against the steppe nomads to the north
- the completed wall was once the largest manmade object in the world, but despite its grandeur, it often proved ineffective as a defensive barrier
- Mongol leader Altan Khan famously bypassed the wall and raided Beijing in 1550, and the Manchus later broke through in 1644 and brought about the fall of the Ming Dynasty

6. The Walls of Constantinople
- Byzantine metropolis of Constantinople (modern day Istanbul) flourished for over a millennium with more than 14 miles of barricades that surrounded the city
- most famous were the Theodosian Wall that included a moat, a 27-foot outer wall and a massive inner wall that was 40 feet tall and 15 feet thick
- in 1453, the Ottoman Empire besieged the city, their artillery to blasted holes in the walls, the Turks poured through the breach and captured Constantinople, toppling the Byzantine Empire

7. The Berlin Wall
- modern history’s most infamous wall was erected in 1961, when the Soviet-aligned East German government built a series of concrete partitions separating East and West Berlin
- 1000's of East Germans succeeded in scaling the wall, tunneling underneath it and even flying over it in ultra-light aircraft and homemade hot air balloons
— Westerners dubbed it the “Wall of Shame” and it stood for only 28 years before East German authorities finally opened it on November 9, 1989
- a wave of celebrations, and elated Berliners soon went to work demolishing the wall with jackhammers and chisels

https://www.history.com/news/7-famous-border-walls
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History has demonstrated repeatedly that putting one's faith in "THE WALL" only contributes to a false sense of security and makes even less sense when confronted with the technological advances of the modern era!
 
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Crucifer

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History has demonstrated repeatedly that putting one's faith in "THE WALL" only contributes to a false sense of security and makes even less sense when confronted with the technological advances of the modern era!

People are just following a narrative- a grand wall that will keep out all others trying to come in. They were mesmerized by Trump's rhetoric and thinking unrealistically.
Now all of a sudden this border thing has become some paramount issue beyond everything else of concern like America will be mortally wounded if it doesn't disconnect itself from the rest of the Western hemisphere.

The more it's scrutinized the more ridiculous it looks- people still strung up about it even though that proposed magnificent fortress wall is now just a refurbishing and lesser people want it. It's really just come down to 'whats even the point at all', and instead of supporters recognizing this they just throw a fit.
It becomes 'well you don't want to protect anything then' or, even richer, 'that it's the only way and nothing else can work'.
You see this same kind of argumentation about a lot of things from the Right, particularly when it comes to gun control or healthcare- nothing else could possibly work, only THEIR way.
 

fool

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
People are just following a narrative- a grand wall that will keep out all others trying to come in. They were mesmerized by Trump's rhetoric and thinking unrealistically.
Now all of a sudden this border thing has become some paramount issue beyond everything else of concern like America will be mortally wounded if it doesn't disconnect itself from the rest of the Western hemisphere.

The more it's scrutinized the more ridiculous it looks- people still strung up about it even though that proposed magnificent fortress wall is now just a refurbishing and lesser people want it. It's really just come down to 'whats even the point at all', and instead of supporters recognizing this they just throw a fit.
It becomes 'well you don't want to protect anything then' or, even richer, 'that it's the only way and nothing else can work'.
You see this same kind of argumentation about a lot of things from the Right, particularly when it comes to gun control or healthcare- nothing else could possibly work, only THEIR way.

What's your way to deal with this?:
 

jgarden

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People are just following a narrative- a grand wall that will keep out all others trying to come in. They were mesmerized by Trump's rhetoric and thinking unrealistically.
Now all of a sudden this border thing has become some paramount issue beyond everything else of concern like America will be mortally wounded if it doesn't disconnect itself from the rest of the Western hemisphere.

The more it's scrutinized the more ridiculous it looks- people still strung up about it even though that proposed magnificent fortress wall is now just a refurbishing and lesser people want it. It's really just come down to 'whats even the point at all', and instead of supporters recognizing this they just throw a fit.
It becomes 'well you don't want to protect anything then' or, even richer, 'that it's the only way and nothing else can work'.
You see this same kind of argumentation about a lot of things from the Right, particularly when it comes to gun control or healthcare- nothing else could possibly work, only THEIR way.
A cynical observer might interpret "THE WALL" as nothing more than a political ploy used to divert attention away from the Mueller Investigation and the other problems that confront his President!

Notice that those who are 1st in line to demand that America needs "THE WALL" to provide border security are the same individuals who denounce the very existence of climate change - which potentially represents a far greater threat to society and border security as the result of billions of people being displaced from those parts of the world that can no longer sustain agriculture!
 

fool

Well-known member
Hall of Fame
A cynical observer might interpret "THE WALL" as nothing more than a political ploy used to divert attention away from the Mueller Investigation and the other problems that confront his President!

Notice that those who are 1st in line to demand that America needs "THE WALL" to provide border security are the same individuals who denounce the very existence of climate change - which potentially represents a far greater threat to society and border security as the result of billions of people being displaced from those parts of the world that can no longer sustain agriculture!

The exclamation points really bolster your argument you should use a lot more of them.
 
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