Why "Conversion Therapy" Should Be Illegal

[Idolater]

I've gone back and reread your original comment four times now, I can't find any way to interpret it except as I did. Your second explanation did not change that interpretation and made even less sense. If I am missing something I apologize but until you can make it clearer, I can only read your meaning one way.

Therapy A aims to assist people suffering from disordered desires
Therapy B deliberately kills patients
It seems dumb to permit Therapy B, and outlaw Therapy A
'Must be a way to make Therapy A at least as humane as Therapy B

 

[Kit the Coyote]

Therapy A aims to assist people suffering from disordered desires
Therapy B deliberately kills patients
It seems dumb to permit Therapy B, and outlaw Therapy A
'Must be a way to make Therapy A at least as humane as Therapy B

The logic here is faulty, largely because other than as you observe they are both medical treatments, there is no realistic connection between A and B.

I sort of see your reasoning better here but in the end, the logic is still off. The primary reasoning for assisted suicide is the subject is suffering physically with no reasonable hope of that suffering ending.

The case in the other situation is not the same, a comparison of apples and oranges. The subject may be suffering but the pain is emotional and there is reasonable hope to treat it.

The reason why the therapy in question is outlawed is the evidence indicates it will most likely make the suffering greater, not better and thus another treatment is the ideal approach.

 

[Idolater]

The logic here is faulty, largely because other than as you observe they are both medical treatments, there is no realistic connection between A and B.

That they are both medical treatments, is the only connection I need to make the point. That, and them both requiring constant valid consent in order for the administration of the therapies to continue.

I sort of see your reasoning better here

I appreciate it.

but in the end, the logic is still off. The primary reasoning for assisted suicide is the subject is suffering physically with no reasonable hope of that suffering ending.

The case in the other situation is not the same, a comparison of apples and oranges. The subject may be suffering but the pain is emotional and there is reasonable hope to treat it.

The reason why the therapy in question is outlawed is the evidence indicates it will most likely make the suffering greater, not better and thus another treatment is the ideal approach.

The point is just that there is a voluntary medical therapy whose mission is to kill the patient. If that's not outlawed, then it makes zero sense to me, to outlaw a voluntary therapy that does NOT kill every patient to whom the therapy is administered. If they want to try it, why not permit them? 'Seems like a double standard to me. aka 'dumb.'

 

[Kit the Coyote]

That they are both medical treatments, is the only connection I need to make the point. That, and them both requiring constant valid consent in order for the administration of the therapies to continue.
I appreciate it.
The point is just that there is a voluntary medical therapy whose mission is to kill the patient. If that's not outlawed, then it makes zero sense to me, to outlaw a voluntary therapy that does NOT kill every patient to whom the therapy is administered. If they want to try it, why not permit them? 'Seems like a double standard to me. aka 'dumb.'

To reach that conclusion you have to simplify the hell out of everything and ignore important details. One is a mercy that brings an end to pain and suffering where there is no other alternative and death is inevitable. The other does not, they tend to increase suffering according to the evidence and there are other solutions.

You also ignore that many of the minors entering these programs are NOT volunteering even though they say they are. It is the reason the treatment bans are usually for minors. There are adults who enter the treatments for the same reasons and fail because of them, but at least they have the autonomy to walk out.

 

[Idolater]

To reach that conclusion you have to simplify the hell out of everything

But you don't have to oversimplify anything. Yes, I've simplified. But it is valid simplification.

and ignore important details. One is a mercy that brings an end to pain and suffering where there is no other alternative and death is inevitable.

Sometimes. And sometimes it's just physician-assisted suicide, aka suicide. Well, it's always suicide, it's just that in many cases we'd understand the desire to kill oneself, although that doesn't necessarily mean this medical treatment ought to be licit. It's always suicide. It always kills the patient. And this isn't oversimplifying anything.

The other does not, they tend to increase suffering according to the evidence and there are other solutions.

I agree that some evidence suggests that some 'conversion therapy' can be harmful. E.g., patients of this therapy are more likely to commit suicide than those whose families are accepting of their disordered desires, rather than shaming them. But again by comparison, physician-assisted suicide kills all its patients, not just some.

You also ignore that many of the minors entering these programs are NOT volunteering even though they say they are.

It's a thorny issue, agreed. Minors are not capable of entering into contracts, not capable of forming true consent. And I was comparing only 'conversion therapy' that's administered to adults, that's true.

It is the reason the treatment bans are usually for minors. There are adults who enter the treatments for the same reasons and fail because of them, but at least they have the autonomy to walk out.

Oh. I thought the OP was about banning all 'conversion therapy' for everybody, not just for minors. My mistake.

 

[Kit the Coyote]

But you don't have to oversimplify anything. Yes, I've simplified. But it is valid simplification.
Sometimes. And sometimes it's just physician-assisted suicide, aka suicide. Well, it's always suicide, it's just that in many cases we'd understand the desire to kill oneself, although that doesn't necessarily mean this medical treatment ought to be licit. It's always suicide. It always kills the patient. And this isn't oversimplifying anything.
I agree that some evidence suggests that some 'conversion therapy' can be harmful. E.g., patients of this therapy are more likely to commit suicide than those whose families are accepting of their disordered desires, rather than shaming them. But again by comparison, physician-assisted suicide kills all its patients, not just some.
It's a thorny issue, agreed. Minors are not capable of entering into contracts, not capable of forming true consent. And I was comparing only 'conversion therapy' that's administered to adults, that's true.
Oh. I thought the OP was about banning all 'conversion therapy' for everybody, not just for minors. My mistake.

Generally one of the reasons I oppose assisted suicide laws generally, though if you are going to ban it you have to be willing to allow levels of medication in hospice situations that aren't allowed elsewhere to address the suffering.

To my knowledge, the legislative bans have been almost all bans on subjecting minors to these treatments primarily because of the consent issue and the potential harm to minors forced into the programs. There may be further restrictions by medical and insurance boards on licensed practitioners based on the lack of sound science.

I personally have no problem with adults undergoing the program if they want but the state has a legitimate interest in protecting minors.

I do agree with the medical community regulating itself based on the science, as such don't expect license professionals to continue the practice for long or insurance companies to pay for it.

 

[MrDante]

Therapy A aims to assist people suffering from disordered desires
Therapy B deliberately kills patients
It seems dumb to permit Therapy B, and outlaw Therapy A
'Must be a way to make Therapy A at least as humane as Therapy B

Both "therapies" kill, one just takes longer.

Assisted Suicide is applied at the behest of the patient to relieve suffering from an actual disease process after all other means of relieving that suffering have been exhausted.


Conversion therapy is inflicted on healthy individuals, largely children, for a political ideology, with advocates spouting the lie of "disordered desires"

 

[MrDante]

That they are both medical treatments, is the only connection I need to make the point.

Conversion therapy isn't a medical treatment. To be a medical treatment something has to be applied to medical problem or pathology. it has to be based on sound practice. it has to have demonstrably positive results without the inflicting of undue harm. it has to be administered by or under the supervision of a qualified professional. Conversion therapy is not a medical treatment by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[ok doser]

...Conversion therapy is inflicted on healthy individuals...

well, no

it's used on individuals who are most decidedly not healthy

 

[lovemeorhateme]

When I was a teenager, my parents tried to put me through conversion therapy. I was also made to attend a couple of “exorcisms” to deal with my “obvious” demonic possession. I can certainly attest to it not working for me. I’ve met many others who also attest to it not working for them.

If an adult wishes to give such therapy a try, well I’ve got no problem with that. But it should never be forced on anyone.

 

[Idolater]

Both "therapies" kill, one just takes longer.

Assisted Suicide is applied at the behest of the patient to relieve suffering from an actual disease process after all other means of relieving that suffering have been exhausted.


Conversion therapy is inflicted on healthy individuals, largely children, for a political ideology, with advocates spouting the lie of "disordered desires"

Conversion therapy isn't a medical treatment. To be a medical treatment something has to be applied to medical problem or pathology. it has to be based on sound practice. it has to have demonstrably positive results without the inflicting of undue harm. it has to be administered by or under the supervision of a qualified professional. Conversion therapy is not a medical treatment by any stretch of the imagination.

Homosexual desires are 'disordered desires,' this is just the authorized Christian moral teaching on the matter. If you disagree, fine; you have the right to it. But it is not a 'lie.'

 

[Arthur Brain]

When I was a teenager, my parents tried to put me through conversion therapy. I was also made to attend a couple of “exorcisms” to deal with my “obvious” demonic possession. I can certainly attest to it not working for me. I’ve met many others who also attest to it not working for them.

If an adult wishes to give such therapy a try, well I’ve got no problem with that. But it should never be forced on anyone.

Sorry you were put through that Pete. There's no credible evidence that it's worked for anyone, I suspect because it's simply not legitimate practice on any scientific and medical level but just quackery.

 

[MrDante]

well, no

it's used on individuals who are most decidedly not healthy

do you have anything beyond your own personal prejudice (illness) to back this up?

 

[MrDante]

Homosexual desires are 'disordered desires,' this is just the authorized Christian moral teaching on the matter. If you disagree, fine; you have the right to it. But it is not a 'lie.'

your personal bigotry doesn't cause others to be disordered, just you.

 

[MrDante]

When I was a teenager, my parents tried to put me through conversion therapy. I was also made to attend a couple of “exorcisms” to deal with my “obvious” demonic possession. I can certainly attest to it not working for me. I’ve met many others who also attest to it not working for them.

i can't grasp how anyone could be sick enough to do such things to a child

If an adult wishes to give such therapy a try, well I’ve got no problem with that. But it should never be forced on anyone.

At a minimum any adult walking into conversion therapy should be given full disclosure and informed consent regarding the efficacy its lack of results and the known harms it causes. But if Conversion therapists did that people would never sign up

 

[lovemeorhateme]

Sorry you were put through that Pete. There's no credible evidence that it's worked for anyone, I suspect because it's simply not legitimate practice on any scientific and medical level but just quackery.

At the time, I was told that if change didn’t come about it was due to a lack of faith on my part, and not a strong enough desire to change. Meanwhile, I was hating myself so much and so desperately wanting to change that I was self harming in secret. I was also told that if a demon was cast out of me, and I left the door open, then it would return with several demons more powerful than itself and repossess me.

 

[lovemeorhateme]

i can't grasp how anyone could be sick enough to do such things to a child

My parents thought they were doing what’s best for me according to their worldview.

At a minimum any adult walking into conversion therapy should be given full disclosure and informed consent regarding the efficacy its lack of results and the known harms it causes. But if Conversion therapists did that people would never sign up

People should always have full access to the facts about something before they sign up. I see conversion therapy as something akin to homeopathy. No evidence it works, but people believe it and buy into the idea anyway.

 

[Arthur Brain]

At the time, I was told that if change didn’t come about it was due to a lack of faith on my part, and not a strong enough desire to change. Meanwhile, I was hating myself so much and so desperately wanting to change that I was self harming in secret. I was also told that if a demon was cast out of me, and I left the door open, then it would return with several demons more powerful than itself and repossess me.

Oh man...you should never have been subjected to garbage like that. That was abuse pure and simple. Is it any wonder that homosexual youths have sometimes resorted to taking their own lives as a result of this "therapy"? What you've described is religious zeal gone amok, just absolutely sickening. I'm glad you made it through all of that Pete.

 

[ok doser]

That was abuse pure and simple.

What you've described is religious zeal gone amok, just absolutely sickening.

you are, of course, talking about his parents


putz

 

[Arthur Brain]

you are, of course, talking his parents


putz

Dude, a heads up here and for future reference also. Not interested in your tedious, boring trolling about for attention. You'll have to get your kicks elsewhere for anyone who'll give you the time which by the looks of it ain't gonna be much. I was not talking about Pete's parents which he will have ascertained full well but by the institutes that subjected him to the abuse he's described here and just how harmful that can be. If he wants to address any issue further on the score then I'll reply to him alone although it's pretty evident that the "therapy" he received did no good at all, even if through loving parental intentions. Sometimes that's why places like these need kicking into touch.

Now, that's the last you'll be getting by way of response from me so by all means carry on with your usual "tard" and associated and act like a grown man in dire need of a diaper.

Have fun.

:e4e: