You think? I doubt it.
Who Can Explain This Scripture?
- Thread starter iamaberean
- Start date
You think? I doubt it.
SonOfCaleb
Active member
The Book of Enoch is a gnostic mysticism work that was authored approximately around 300 BCE. Interestingly its a work that is reverred by occultists and some of the worlds most prominent Satanists. That alone should let you know the veracity of the book and its supposed canonicity thats only recognised by one Church on the entire planet.
popsthebuilder
New member
Wow...there you go attacking people for no reason again. Such a keen example of what a Christian is to be and how they are to act.
I really hope that none actually look up to you. To see people who claim to be faithful to GOD act contrary to His teachings makes my stomach turn.
It's easy to see who has the capacity for thought and to what extent those thoughts may reach; all your thoughts are evidently equivalent to a grade school bully who must have his way.
Are you aware that all will be judged.
Are you aware that you reap what you sow and are to act towards others how you would like them to act towards you?
In other words; why don't you follow the command of the Christ if you are actually a Christian as opposed to some derogatory mouthpiece who really loves the sound of their own voice.
Keep trying me friend; you'll find that I am neither dumb, deaf or weak.
If and when you are ready to talk about relevant topics and stop with the insults you just let me know.
Peace
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Most do. I'm 6'4"
Thanks for that information.
popsthebuilder
New member
Are we to follow the masses or go along the narrow path and in through the side gate?
Are we to let others lead us astray with the traditions of man?
Are we to fear anything whatsoever but the consequences of our actions and the judgment of GOD?
Are we to be loved by the masses or hated?
Peace
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
So, you accept The Book of Enoch?
popsthebuilder
New member
Accept it as what?
Divinely inspired writing of man... Yes I do. And many other books that you no doubt would consider not profitable for the direction of man by the will of GOD.
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
beameup
New member
Would that be 1st Enoch, 2nd Enoch or 3rd Enoch?
I should remind you that the original (1st) Enoch was
quoted by Jude and also found among the Dead Sea Scrolls.
SonOfCaleb
Active member
None of that matters. The BoE is a well known recognised forgery by all reputable academic, rabbinic and theological circles.
You dont need to believe me. Just read the book of Enoch for yourself and draw your own conclusion. As if you're claiming to be a Christian and yet you're willing to defend an accepted occult work then you may want to re-examine what you believe in.
popsthebuilder
New member
I examine what I believe daily. And I don't base my opinion on the traditions of man or the favor of the masses.
Judaism was originally polytheistic but it's still in the Bible.
I've read the book of Enoch more than once and actively read the core religious writing of many of the faithful. Why wouldn't I?
Peace.
People being scared to read something are letting unwarranted fear control them.
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
popsthebuilder
New member
None of that matters... Wow... The teachings of the Christ do not matter to you?
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
SonOfCaleb
Active member
If the teachings of Christ didnt matter to me i wouldnt A) Be on this board and B) I wouldnt be attempting to discourage you from reading an occult book.
popsthebuilder
New member
But why attempt to discourage any from reading anything. Are we to be guided by fear of anything whatsoever but GOD.
I apologize; I wasn't trying to insinuate that you weren't a Christian by any means and could have worded that differently.
Peace
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
SonOfCaleb
Active member
Well you clearly do as by your own criteria its men who decide which books are canon.
No it wasnt. Im not sure exactly where youre getting your information from but Judaism has NEVER been polytheistic. Judaism was monotheistic from its inception. Thats why Christianity, Islam and Judaism are known as the 'Abrahamic faiths' by scholars.
This has nothing to do with being 'scared'. The admonishment by God for demonism is very clear in the Bible. The BoE is an occult book. If you claim to be a Christian why would you waste your time with an occult book?
This is what the early Christians in the Ephesus congregation did with their demonistic and magic practicing literature:-
Acts 19:19 " Indeed, quite a number of those who practiced magical arts brought their books together and burned them up before everybody."
popsthebuilder
New member
SonOfCaleb,
Why assume my faith is derived from any book?
Judaism derived from polytheistic beliefs. It has little to do with the fact that it is an abrahamic faith.
Demonism? Never saw that in scripture.
The book of Enoch has nothing to do with magic. You would know that if you read it.
Again I ask; why tell anyone to not read anything?
The*origins of Judaism*lie in the*Bronze Agepolytheistic*Ancient Semitic religions, specifically*Canaanite religion, a syncretization with elements of*Babylonian religion*and of the worship of*Yahwehreflected in the early*prophetic books*of theHebrew Bible. During the Iron Age I, the Israelite religion became distinct from other Canaanite religions due to the unique monolatristic (proto-monotheistic) worship ofYahweh.
That's from Wikipedia and the first thing that pops up if you google the origins of Judaism.
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Why assume my faith is derived from any book?
Judaism derived from polytheistic beliefs. It has little to do with the fact that it is an abrahamic faith.
Demonism? Never saw that in scripture.
The book of Enoch has nothing to do with magic. You would know that if you read it.
Again I ask; why tell anyone to not read anything?
The*origins of Judaism*lie in the*Bronze Agepolytheistic*Ancient Semitic religions, specifically*Canaanite religion, a syncretization with elements of*Babylonian religion*and of the worship of*Yahwehreflected in the early*prophetic books*of theHebrew Bible. During the Iron Age I, the Israelite religion became distinct from other Canaanite religions due to the unique monolatristic (proto-monotheistic) worship ofYahweh.
That's from Wikipedia and the first thing that pops up if you google the origins of Judaism.
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
SonOfCaleb
Active member
Ive not assumed anything of the sort. You claim to be a Christian no...?
It has EVERYTHING to do with Abraham. As Abraham worshiped ONE God and he was the father of Judaism and of the Jews. He was NOT polytheistic and neither did he worship the gods of the Babylonians or Chaldeans when he was in Ur. The ancient world where he came from was entirely polytheistic in nature. And yet one man Abraham who was the patriarch of the Jewish people was the only monotheist of his time to be found.
Demonism is condemned all over the scriptures. In fact King Saul lost his life for consulting with the 'Witch of Endor' in his vain attempt to understand the outcome of his battle with the phillistines. And yet Saul was well versed with the Pentatuch as Deuteronomy 18:10-13 says:-
10 There should not be found in you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, anyone who employs divination, anyone practicing magic, anyone who looks for omens, a sorcerer, 11 anyone binding others with a spell, anyone who consults a spirit medium or a fortune-teller, or anyone who inquires of the dead. 12 For whoever does these things is detestable to Jehovah, and on account of these detestable practices Jehovah your God is driving them away from before you. 13 You should prove yourself blameless before Jehovah your God.
Im afraid it does. Like i said its a popular book among occultists and Satan worshipers. Dont take my word for it. Do your own research. Just a few casual searches online on Google and youll find i'm correct.
Ive already explained this. Its a demonic book. God and Demonism do not mix.
Wikipedia is often wrong. It is after all an online resource that ANYONE can edit. If you're famiiar with the Bible, namely the Pentatuch and secular rabbinic, Judaic tradition you'd know that paragraph you've quoted is complete nonsense.
The Jewish religion was already established centurys before they moved into the promised land. Jews didnt start mixing with Canaanites until they arrived in Palestine by which time the nation of Israel was already formed as it had come out of Egypt nearly 500 years before.
The Abrahamic covenant was established in 1943 B.C.E. The nation of Israel entered Canaan under Joshua in 1473 B.C.E. As you can see from the chronology of these two important events its obvious Wikipedia is wrong A) Because Abraham wasn't a polytheist and B) The Jews already had the Mosiac Law, along with the fundamental tenets of their religion established hundreds of years before they set eyes on the first Canaanite or Babylonian.
popsthebuilder
New member
SonOfCaleb,
Firstly I would like to thank you for your in depth, relatively neutral response. It speaks to your character and what it speaks isn't bad.
I indeed am a Christian but my initial faith did not come from the reading of the bible or the indoctrination of man.
Surely the bible is the inspired word of GOD and emanates truth, and surely the Church or body of the Christ is profitable towards the direction of GOD, but that doesn't in any way mean that ones faith must initially stem from such in order for them to be Christian.
I enjoyed your concise points about Abraham whom I hold with high esteem. Yet regardless of when the actual denomination or official religion of Judaism was named; previous traditions and practices surely bleed off into the religion. If you doubt that then perhaps simply read the OT. Jeremiah comes to mind, but in its entirety the tribes of Judah are rebuked for their misdirection and worship of other gods and idol worship (placing anything before the Will of GOD)
I agree that Wikipedia has the potential to be wrong, but studies show that generally that just isn't the case.
I agree that magic, witch craft, sorcery and the like are not pleasing to GOD, yet I contend that the book of Enoch verified those same points and even expounds upon them, so your claim that it is domonistic or what have you are moot on that point alone.
It is becoming apparent that you haven't actually read it, yet you will read the words of others and determine your opinion from there, though we both know that that isn't the correct means of which one should determine such. As you stated about Wikipedia in a way.
You can claim that the book is popular among those who may be of the opposition or wrong direction, but again I posit that it is canon text for Ethiopian Christians.
Christianity in Ethiopia*dates to the 1st century AD, arguably the first nation in the world to accept Christianity (the other nation to debate this being Armenia) and this long tradition makes*Ethiopia*unique amongst sub-Saharan African countries. Christianity in this country is divided into several groups. The largest and oldest is the*Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church*(in Amharic: የኢትዮጵያ ኦርቶዶክስ ተዋሕዶ ቤተክርስትያን Yäityop'ya ortodoks täwahedo bétäkrestyan) is an Oriental Orthodox church in*Ethiopia*that was part of the*Coptic Orthodox Church*until 1959, when it was granted its own Patriarch byCoptic Orthodox Pope*of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa*Cyril VI.
The only pre-colonial Christian church of Africa (note: Ethiopia is also the only country in Africa to have never been colonized), the Ethiopian Church has a membership of between 40 and 45 million,[1]*the majority of whom live in Ethiopia,[2]*and is thus the largest of all*Oriental Orthodox*churches. Next in size are the various*Protestant*congregations, who include 13.7 million Ethiopians. The largest Protestant group is the*Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus, with about 5 million members.*Roman Catholicism*has been present in Ethiopia since the 16th century, and numbers 536,827 believers. In total, Christians make up about 60% of the total population of the country.[3]*According to a breakdown of the figures from and information about the United States:A 2015 study estimates 400,000 people of orthodox christianity faith live in United States.*[4]
That's from Wikipedia too so it could be wrong I guess, but it most likely is not.
That's all I got,
I look forward to your rebuttal.
Peace
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
Firstly I would like to thank you for your in depth, relatively neutral response. It speaks to your character and what it speaks isn't bad.
I indeed am a Christian but my initial faith did not come from the reading of the bible or the indoctrination of man.
Surely the bible is the inspired word of GOD and emanates truth, and surely the Church or body of the Christ is profitable towards the direction of GOD, but that doesn't in any way mean that ones faith must initially stem from such in order for them to be Christian.
I enjoyed your concise points about Abraham whom I hold with high esteem. Yet regardless of when the actual denomination or official religion of Judaism was named; previous traditions and practices surely bleed off into the religion. If you doubt that then perhaps simply read the OT. Jeremiah comes to mind, but in its entirety the tribes of Judah are rebuked for their misdirection and worship of other gods and idol worship (placing anything before the Will of GOD)
I agree that Wikipedia has the potential to be wrong, but studies show that generally that just isn't the case.
I agree that magic, witch craft, sorcery and the like are not pleasing to GOD, yet I contend that the book of Enoch verified those same points and even expounds upon them, so your claim that it is domonistic or what have you are moot on that point alone.
It is becoming apparent that you haven't actually read it, yet you will read the words of others and determine your opinion from there, though we both know that that isn't the correct means of which one should determine such. As you stated about Wikipedia in a way.
You can claim that the book is popular among those who may be of the opposition or wrong direction, but again I posit that it is canon text for Ethiopian Christians.
Christianity in Ethiopia*dates to the 1st century AD, arguably the first nation in the world to accept Christianity (the other nation to debate this being Armenia) and this long tradition makes*Ethiopia*unique amongst sub-Saharan African countries. Christianity in this country is divided into several groups. The largest and oldest is the*Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church*(in Amharic: የኢትዮጵያ ኦርቶዶክስ ተዋሕዶ ቤተክርስትያን Yäityop'ya ortodoks täwahedo bétäkrestyan) is an Oriental Orthodox church in*Ethiopia*that was part of the*Coptic Orthodox Church*until 1959, when it was granted its own Patriarch byCoptic Orthodox Pope*of Alexandria and Patriarch of All Africa*Cyril VI.
The only pre-colonial Christian church of Africa (note: Ethiopia is also the only country in Africa to have never been colonized), the Ethiopian Church has a membership of between 40 and 45 million,[1]*the majority of whom live in Ethiopia,[2]*and is thus the largest of all*Oriental Orthodox*churches. Next in size are the various*Protestant*congregations, who include 13.7 million Ethiopians. The largest Protestant group is the*Ethiopian Evangelical Church Mekane Yesus, with about 5 million members.*Roman Catholicism*has been present in Ethiopia since the 16th century, and numbers 536,827 believers. In total, Christians make up about 60% of the total population of the country.[3]*According to a breakdown of the figures from and information about the United States:A 2015 study estimates 400,000 people of orthodox christianity faith live in United States.*[4]
That's from Wikipedia too so it could be wrong I guess, but it most likely is not.
That's all I got,
I look forward to your rebuttal.
Peace
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk
SonOfCaleb
Active member
No. Im afraid your understanding of this is incorrect. The Jewish faith was unique in that the Jews recieved their law convenant by divine intervention direct from God when Moses went up into Mount Sinai. What became known as the Mosaic Law which is detailed in the first 5 books known as the Torah or the Pentatuch was an immmutable law. The fundamentals of which are rooted in the so called 10 commandments or 10 words.
Note the first 'commandment' at Exodus 20:2-5 "2 I am Jehovah your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 You must not have any other gods besides me.
4 “You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth. 5 You must not bow down to them nor be enticed to serve them, for I, Jehovah your God, am a God who requires exclusive devotion, bringing punishment for the error of fathers upon sons, upon the third generation and upon the fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing loyal love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments."
These were Gods own words to Moses, a prophet whom God said he spoke to "face to face". Note this was the first of all the commandments that Israel was not to have ANY Gods beside Jehovah God alone. This shows the primacy of Gods command to Israel. God goes on to punctuate this point very clearly in verse 5 where he says am a God exacting exclusive devotion. It doesn't get any clearer than this that the fundamentals of the Jewish faith were established solely on the concept of monotheism and not polytheism.
Granted once the Jews moved into the promise land and started mingling with the Canaanites which they were instructed NOT to do by the Levites and numerous prophets such as Elijah, Isaiah and Jeremiah the Israelites started to worship false gods. Their apostasy got so bad that by the time God had given the nation into the hands of the Babylonians and Babylon took Israel captive in 607 BCE, when they returned back to Israel under Cyrus decree in 537 BCE most of the Jews who returned were unfamiliar with their religion and its practices much less being versed in the Mosaic Law which was an integral part of their religious instruction! You only have to read the books of Nehemiah and Ezra to understand the sorry state Israel was in, and the apostasy it had sunk into which was the reason why God allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem for their disobedience in the first place.
Regardless the Levites who were the priestly tribe were responsible for religious instruction. Their law was was kept in the Most Holy in the Tabernacle which only the Levite High Priest had access to. The most Holy was so sacred that anyone accessing it unlawfully was suffered the penalty of death.
So as you can see there are no examples biblically, rabbinic or secular that support the notion that Jews of remote antiquity adopted pagan religious custom into their religion during the earliest times of its establishment.
The Pharisees and some Jewish gnostics like the Essenes did adopt and incorporate Hellenic customs into their brand of Judaism but this was thousands of years after the Jews were setted in Palestine.
I don't disagree. But in this case it clearly is.
Its really not a moot point as its obvious Enoch who died long before the flood of Noah didnt write the BoE. Therefore who or what would you attribute this gnostic source to? One of the first criteria when deciding the canonicity of a book was to verify the author. The BoE fails miserably in that regard as Enoch died well over 2000 years before the BoE was written. Thus its obvious he's not the author of the book.
Athough ive only read a handful of passages from it which were mostly incoherent nonsense i dont feel the need to read a book that i know is fraudulent. From the research i've done of the book its clear its fraudulent. Outside of academic consideration I dont consider debating gnostic material a good use of my time.
In terms of supporting your point this is irrelavent. Firstly the first Christian congregations established were in Jerusalem in 1AD. Other early congregations were in Ephesus, Corinth and Galatia to name a few. Early Christians in 1AD were to be found as far a field as Tarshish (Spain) or Babylon, or Syria and Egypt where many Christian Jews fled after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans in 70CE. Thus the argument that the Ethiopian Copts of 1AD who believe the BoE is canonical is inconsequential as they were not the first Christians nor the first Christian congregation/church.
In fact id go as far to assert that the 1AD claim for the Ethiopian Copts is probably a spurious date. The great apostasy Jesus prophesied didnt occur until at least the 2nd/3rd Century AD. The Coptic Church was one of the first Churches to be established in Egypt/Ethiopia around the middle of the 2nd Century and may be later. The Jews who lived in Egypt and Ethiopia were very familiar with their Jewish learning, religion and custom. The BoE was simply not a book they read or used in their religious instruction. It was not a book that was read to the Jews when learning the law. And as zealous as the early Christians were many dying by their thousands especially in Rome at the hands of the tyrant Nero its extremely unlikely they would have lent any support to a book that was A) Not canonical according to the Jews nor the Christian Apostolic governing body in Jerusalem of 1AD who directed early Christianity along with the Apostle Paul and B) The Bible Canon was already closed by 1AD just after the death of John on the Island of Patmos after he wrote Revelations.
In fact early councils in Laodicea 367CE and Chalcedon 451CE and the so called church fathers were in substantial agreement in accepting the established Jewish canon and in rejecting the Apocryphal books which include the BoE.
By the end of the second century there was no question that the canon of the Christian Greek Scriptures was closed. Irenaeus, Clement of Alexandria, and Tertullian recognized the writings comprising the Christian Scriptures as carrying authority equal to that of the Hebrew Scriptures.
It would be interesting to know when the Orthodox Tewahedo added the BoE to their canon. As id hazard a guess it was long after 1AD when the Bible canon was aready closed.
Last edited:
popsthebuilder
New member
Your point was initially that it was Gnostic and demonic.
I showed that it was neither.
You said it wasn't canon. I showed that it is and was canon for the first Christians.
My points stand friend. I agree about the Gnostic books not belonging in canon, I don't consider the book of Enoch to be of Gnostic origins.
You claim it isn't profitable as the inspired word of GOD because the author can't be verified, I posit that it could have easily been passed down verbally like the rest of the Jewish writings. Also, if your claim is that you don't trust it because you can't verify the author, then why trust any book in the Bible?
Anyway, you make decent points, just not ones that line up with your original reasons for excluding the book.
Peace
Sent from my Z988 using Tapatalk