When does life begin? Granite vs. reality

[avatar382]

Unaware that he has been smacked by truth, avatar382 wanders the Earth in search of more cherry Hi-C while encouraging young girls to go ahead and abort. "The life you carry inside is worth much less than you or I", he proclaims. But the price tag dangling from his protective helmet clips him in the eyes causing blindness. He dwells in complete darkness now.

And he likes it.

Your original question was answered in post 54 and again in post 94.

The closest you came to a rebuttal was in your post 93 by saying "...we don't know why god..." to which I responded in post 95.

In post 99 you have claimed I "encouraging young girls to go ahead and abort" and other inaccurate and misleading statements about my arguments, while ignoring my rebuttals in posts 54, 94, and 95.

Keep up the good work! :thumb:

 

[On Fire]

Now, it seems that you are taking the point of view that the up tp 70% death rate of these "a one-week-old living human embryos" is NOT your gods design - a different take than On Fire took who suggested that the loss is part of "gods perfect plan."

It doesn't matter. God's plan is perfect. Miscarriages happen for a reason. Many happen well after the first week. It's still not a license to kill.

 

[On Fire]

Either way, the implication is that god himself does not value life at this stage. So, why should we?

This is a rebuttal? It's a false statement. Read His book.

 

[Granite]

Fine. I'll call it a "a one-week-old living human embryo". Doesn't change the fact that as many as 70% of these "a one-week-old living human embryo" fail to implant and are naturally "aborted".

IF you believe there is a god, and IF you believe that this god designed pregnancy AND values "a one-week-old living human embryos" as much as born human beings, or even fetuses at say, 6 months gestation time then tell me:

Are these souls taken by accident, or by design? I'd like you to address the points I made in post 54. What about the possibility that maybe life at the "a one-week-old living human embryo" stage doesn't mean much?

If life does begin at conception, most of the human race never sees the light of day.

Why would "God" set up a system like this, where so many souls never develop so much as their fingerprints?

 

[avatar382]

This is a rebuttal? It's a false statement. Read His book.

No, that's not a rebuttal. it's an answer to your original question:

W h y - d o - y o u - b e l i e v e - t h a t - n a t u r e - t a k i n g - i t s - c o u r s e - i s - a - l i c e n s e - t o - k i l l ? ? ?

... to which your "rebuttal" was "...we don't know why god..." (which I rebutted in post 95) and now "It's a false statement." (which I will rebut now)

On fire, when you rebut an argument, it is typically not sufficient to merely claim it is false. Lets try again. Tell me, if it is "gods perfect plan", that as many as 70% of "one week old human embryos" are naturally "aborted", why is not logical to conclude that god does not appear to value human life at this extremely early stage?

 

[On Fire]

If life does begin at conception, most of the human race never sees the light of day.

Why would "God" set up a system like this, where so many souls never develop so much as their fingerprints?

God's plan IS perfect. WE screwed it up.

 

[On Fire]

No, that's not a rebuttal. it's an answer to your original question:

YOU said post 94 was a rebuttal, not me.

 

[Granite]

God's plan IS perfect. WE screwed it up.

Leaving some possible tangents aside...

Are you saying the abundance of failed embyros is a side product of the fall?

 

[On Fire]

Leaving some possible tangents aside...

Are you saying the abundance of failed embyros is a side product of the fall?

Quite likely. The fall is man choosing to disobey God. We've come a long way since Eve. Eating that apple was nothing compared to what we do today: sex with same gender, sex with animals, ingesting poisons. Is it any wonder we have so many genetic defects?

 

[Sozo]

Nearly 4000 babies in the US alone die from SIDS each year.

avatar382 would have us believe that a pillow over their face is equally God's decision.

The 70% figures of the failures of embryo implantation take into account all of the failures from in vitro fertilization, uses of birth control abortifacients, and women who abuse their bodies with drugs, alcohol, smoking, etc. It is closer to 15-20% from those who are faithful to the natural reproduction process.

Nevertheless, the whole issue comes down to this simple formula:

A total disregard for the life of a child that will, in any way, impact one's own self-centered desires, and therefore results in a concsious willfull decision to do whatever is necessary to prevent that life from interfering in your own.

 

[2ephesians8]

Leaving some possible tangents aside...

Are you saying the abundance of failed embyros is a side product of the fall?

Death entered through one man, Adam. Yes it is a consequence of the fall, all death is. All creation is in agony awaiting the time when all things will be restored and made new.

And, thanks for 'leaving possible tangents aside'... :chuckle:

 

[avatar382]

Nearly 4000 babies in the US alone die from SIDS each year.

avatar382 would have us believe that a pillow over their face is equally God's decision.

The 70% figures of the failures of embryo implantation take into account all of the failures from in vitro fertilization, uses of birth control abortifacients, and women who abuse their bodies with drugs, alcohol, smoking, etc. It is closer to 15-20% from those who are faithful to the natural reproduction process.

Nevertheless, the whole issue comes down to this simple formula:

A total disregard for the life of a child that will, in any way, impact one's own self-centered desires, and therefore results in a concsious willfull decision to do whatever is necessary to prevent that life from interfering in your own.

1.) 4000 babies/year dying from SIDS is nothing compared to the number of fertalized eggs (est. 40-70%) that fail to implant. We are talking a difference of several orders of magnitude. Even at 15%, the difference is still orders of magnitude!!!

2.) The 40-70% is the rate at which "one week old living human embryos" fail to implant naturally. It does not take into account birth control or IVF, and I've not heard any evidence that the consuption of drugs/alcohol significatly increases the rate at which embryos fail to implant. If you want to claim this I expect a source.

I have provided a source and have seen others which it why i state 40-70%. I would like a source for your claim that the number is 15-20%.

 

[Granite]

Death entered through one man, Adam. Yes it is a consequence of the fall, all death is. All creation is in agony awaiting the time when all things will be restored and made new.

And, thanks for 'leaving possible tangents aside'... :chuckle:

So Adam's fall guaranteed, indirectly, that the vast majority of the human race will actually go to heaven?

If life begins at conception and if the lion's share of embryos are lost, most of the human race will go straight to heaven, correct?

 

[On Fire]

If life begins at conception and if the lion's share of embryos are lost, most of the human race will go straight to heaven, correct?

Seems reasonable....and yet we will still miss you.

 

[Granite]

I'll send you a postcard.:devil:

So in other words, the fall damaged a minority of mankind.

See, for me this kind of thinking poses far too many questions and potential problems than it solves.

 

[avatar382]

I'll send you a postcard.:devil:

So in other words, the fall damaged a minority of mankind.

See, for me this kind of thinking poses far too many questions and potential problems than it solves.

Makes you kind of wish you didn't implant, doesn't it? Go straight to heaven without the trials of life and the possibility of screwing up ending up hell...

By this logic, being born is actually a curse!!! It's like having to risk an entire prize of 50 million dollars (guaranteed salvation) to win just another $10 (the comparatively minuscle experience of a mortal life).

 

[On Fire]

I'll send you a postcard.:devil:

So in other words, the fall damaged a minority of mankind.

See, for me this kind of thinking poses far too many questions and potential problems than it solves.

Preposterous. You are misusing statistics. Just because the majority of deaths in the world occur within weeks after fertilization doesn't mean that you as a 20-something year old man have to worry about being miscarried.

 

[CRASH]

Nearly 4000 babies in the US alone die from SIDS each year.

avatar382 would have us believe that a pillow over their face is equally God's decision.

The 70% figures of the failures of embryo implantation take into account all of the failures from in vitro fertilization, uses of birth control abortifacients, and women who abuse their bodies with drugs, alcohol, smoking, etc. It is closer to 15-20% from those who are faithful to the natural reproduction process.

Nevertheless, the whole issue comes down to this simple formula:

A total disregard for the life of a child that will, in any way, impact one's own self-centered desires, and therefore results in a concsious willfull decision to do whatever is necessary to prevent that life from interfering in your own.

That seems reasonable, I was thinking Avatar was full of ureX:

 

[Granite]

Preposterous. You are misusing statistics. Just because the majority of deaths in the world occur within weeks after fertilization doesn't mean that you as a 20-something year old man have to worry about being miscarried.

Well, let's run down the checklist:

Life begins at conception

Most embryos don't implant

Thus, most human lives (and souls presumably) go straight to heaven

Right? By this rationale, the fall was beneficial in guaranteeing most of mankind would go directly to paradise. At the very least it's very stout insurance for much or most of humanity: they will get to heaven without even suffering through the human condition.

 

[avatar382]

That seems reasonable, I was thinking Avatar was full of ureX:

Sozo hasn't provided a source, and I did - and can provide more. Plus, I rebutted Sozo in post 112, and he's yet to respond.

Perhaps you feel I am full of ureX: because I'm not telling you what you want to hear? :think: