What the Law and the Bible say about Homosexuality.

[Gary K]

Do you have any Biblical support for that idea?

Yeah, it's classed right along with incest and beastiality.

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
[SIZE=+0]14[/SIZE] And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.
[SIZE=+0]15[/SIZE] And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.
[SIZE=+0]16[/SIZE] And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
[SIZE=+0]17[/SIZE] And if a man shall take his sister, his father’s daughter, or his mother’s daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister’s nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

Paul also speaks to this:

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. [SIZE=+0]19[/SIZE] For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. [SIZE=+0]20[/SIZE] For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. [SIZE=+0]21[/SIZE] For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. [SIZE=+0]22[/SIZE]Claiming to be wise, they became fools, [SIZE=+0]23[/SIZE] and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

[SIZE=+0]24[/SIZE] Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, [SIZE=+0]25[/SIZE] because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator,who is blessed forever! Amen.

[SIZE=+0]26[/SIZE] For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; [SIZE=+0]27[/SIZE]and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

[SIZE=+0]28[/SIZE] And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. [SIZE=+0]29[/SIZE] They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, [SIZE=+0]30[/SIZE] slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, [SIZE=+0]31[/SIZE] foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. [SIZE=+0]32[/SIZE] Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them. ESV

What Paul is speaking to are the sexual practices associated with the pagan forms of worship for they were all sexual in nature. These forms of pagan worship were the source of all the sexual perversions we see today. The priests and priestesses of Baal and Ashtorah were all prostitutes as were the priestesses of pagan worship such as the worship of Diana of the Ephesians during NT times. Paul said that worship was the worship of devils. That statement by Paul tells us exactly who is the ultimate source of all these behaviors.

1Corinthians 10:20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.
[SIZE=+0]21[/SIZE] Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord’s table, and of the table of devils.:

 

[Right Divider]

Yeah, it's classed right along with incest and beastiality.

Paul also speaks to this:

What Paul is speaking to are the sexual practices associated with the pagan forms of worship for they were all sexual in nature. These forms of pagan worship were the source of all the sexual perversions we see today. The priests and priestesses of Baal and Ashtorah were all prostitutes as were the priestesses of pagan worship such as the worship of Diana of the Ephesians during NT times. Paul said that worship was the worship of devils. That statement by Paul tells us exactly who is the ultimate source of all these behaviors.

You seemed to be saying that one of the reasons for God's rules about sex is that it avoids disease.

Is that not what you were saying?

 

[Gary K]

You seemed to be saying that one of the reasons for God's rules about sex is that it avoids disease.

Is that not what you were saying?

That's a part of what I'm saying. Many laws God gave the Isrealites had implications for their health. God required them to bury their body wastes. Can you imagine what a camp of a few million people would be like with human waste from all those people littering the ground? Disease would have been rampant in the camp. God also gave the laws about clean and unclean meats partly for health and partly for symbolism. I am speaking to pork in particular at this moment. It is probably the most diseased meat on the planet. I used to work as a refrigeration tech and one of my customers over the years was a meat packing plant that specialized in pork products. That meat is so diseased as it comes from the animal that the FDA required them to keep their pork products at 35 below zero for several weeks before they were shipped in an effort to reduce the amount of disease and parasites in it. If their big freezer, into which you could drive a fork lift, had a temperature rise of 10 degrees or above for more than 1/2 hour they had to toss all their pork as unfit for human consumption. It cured me of ever eating pork products after that. Most of the other meat God told the Isrealites was unclean came from scavengers which are very liable to be diseased from the rotten food they eat. There was a whole lot of common sense and also symbology in what God made lawful and unlawful for the Jews.

I tend to follow those rules just because of my respect for God's wisdom and His knowledge of what is good and bad for the human body as He is the one that designed us. I see absolutely no benefit in ignoring God's counself just because it was given thousands of years ago.

 

[Gary K]

"Homosexual men have been proven to have faulty immune systems"?! Seriously, if you're gonna bandy about accusations regarding political correctness and propaganda then just read back your own garbage right there. A person who is attracted to their own gender (men or women) are not automatically immune deficient and until you can get your head around the fact that a sexual orientation isn't the equivalent of action or behaviour then what is the point? You don't have to act on it at all, it's just how you're wired. How have you not gotten the most basic aspect of this? So you're straight, right? So am I. Did you need to "prove" this to yourself by action/behaviour?

You want to shake your head alright dude.

I am going to have to answer this later as I spent close to an hour creating a reply and when I hit the post button it disappeared into the ether. I now have other things to do so you'll just have to wait. Oh, I know, it just breaks your heart not to see my reply immediately, if not sooner. You'll just have to suffer though....

 

[ok doser]

As was Wilt Chamberlain. He actually made Magic seem pretty mundane in matters related to sexual activity.

i realized after I had posted that any endeavor in which there are groupies would afford the same opportunities to the sexually promiscuous - politics, sports, entertainment - especially musicians

 

[Right Divider]

That's a part of what I'm saying. Many laws God gave the Isrealites had implications for their health. God required them to bury their body wastes. Can you imagine what a camp of a few million people would be like with human waste from all those people littering the ground? Disease would have been rampant in the camp. God also gave the laws about clean and unclean meats partly for health and partly for symbolism. I am speaking to pork in particular at this moment. It is probably the most diseased meat on the planet. I used to work as a refrigeration tech and one of my customers over the years was a meat packing plant that specialized in pork products. That meat is so diseased as it comes from the animal that the FDA required them to keep their pork products at 35 below zero for several weeks before they were shipped in an effort to reduce the amount of disease and parasites in it. If their big freezer, into which you could drive a fork lift, had a temperature rise of 10 degrees or above for more than 1/2 hour they had to toss all their pork as unfit for human consumption. It cured me of ever eating pork products after that. Most of the other meat God told the Isrealites was unclean came from scavengers which are very liable to be diseased from the rotten food they eat. There was a whole lot of common sense and also symbology in what God made lawful and unlawful for the Jews.

I tend to follow those rules just because of my respect for God's wisdom and His knowledge of what is good and bad for the human body as He is the one that designed us. I see absolutely no benefit in ignoring God's counself just because it was given thousands of years ago.

Wow. You really go off the rails for a simple question.

Please show the scripture where God's commands about sexual fidelity have anything to do with health.

Don't ramble on about OTHER commands that are completely unrelated to the THIS question.

 

[ok doser]

.... sexual orientation ....

you're a brilliant man with a keen intellect, so it should be easy for you to understand that normal sexual orientation is just as God has made man - men attracted to women and women attracted to men

anything other than that - attractions to same sex, attractions to animals, attractions to children or any of the other paraphilias are perversions of normal sexual orientation and should be dealt with as mental disorders

 

[Gary K]

Wow. You really go off the rails for a simple question.

Please show the scripture where God's commands about sexual fidelity have anything to do with health.

Don't ramble on about OTHER commands that are completely unrelated to the THIS question.

You seemed to be saying that one of the reasons for God's rules about sex is that it avoids disease.

Is that not what you were saying?

Hmmmm.... Two different ideas and two different requests.

When our founding fathers wrote the Declaration of Independence they touched upon a vital truth: We hold these truths to be self-evident..... Some truths are just self-evident.

Some things in the Bible are simply self-evident from the goodness, lovingkindness, and mercy of God. You know, who God is. For God so loved that He gave.... That is an exceedingly profound statement on who God is. And you seemingly have a hard time viewing God as so wise, so beneficient, so good, so loving, so kind, towards we human beings that for you it is a stretch that God had multiple reasons in mind when He gave His laws, and that one of those reasons is that God was protecting those who love him and obey him from the necessary consequences of of sinful behavior and the enmity of the devil who hates us with a passion for we are made in the image of God. That includes God's laws concerning sexual activity. I mean this is, at it's roots, the most basic understanding of why we should study the Bible. Jesus told us that the primary reason to study the Bible and develop a relationship with God is to know God and His Son: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Why is knowing who God is so important? Because if we don't know Him on a personal level we will never develop the trust in Him that we need for HIm to save us. If we don't develop that trust we will insist on our own understanding rather than relying on God's revelation to us about who He is. As Paul said, we cannot please God without demonstrating faith, which is trust, in Him.

But, God is merciful to we doubting Thomases. He told the Israelites very specifically that following His commands would make them healthy.

Exodus 15:23 And said, If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that healeth thee.

 

[Right Divider]

Hmmmm.... Two different ideas and two different requests.

When our founding fathers wrote the Declaration of Independence they touched upon a vital truth: We hold these truths to be self-evident..... Some truths are just self-evident.

Some things in the Bible are simply self-evident from the goodness, lovingkindness, and mercy of God. You know, who God is. For God so loved that He gave.... That is an exceedingly profound statement on who God is. And you seemingly have a hard time viewing God as so wise, so beneficient, so good, so loving, so kind, towards we human beings that for you it is a stretch that God had multiple reasons in mind when He gave His laws, and that one of those reasons is that God was protecting those who love him and obey him from the necessary consequences of of sinful behavior and the enmity of the devil who hates us with a passion for we are made in the image of God. That includes God's laws concerning sexual activity. I mean this is, at it's roots, the most basic understanding of why we should study the Bible. Jesus told us that the primary reason to study the Bible and develop a relationship with God is to know God and His Son: And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. Why is knowing who God is so important? Because if we don't know Him on a personal level we will never develop the trust in Him that we need for HIm to save us. If we don't develop that trust we will insist on our own understanding rather than relying on God's revelation to us about who He is. As Paul said, we cannot please God without demonstrating faith, which is trust, in Him.

But, God is merciful to we doubting Thomases. He told the Israelites very specifically that following His commands would make them healthy.

God's rules about sex are not based on disease control. They are a lesson about our relationship to Christ.

The fact that they also NOW prevent the spread of disease is NOT the reason for their existence.

 

[Arthur Brain]

I am going to have to answer this later as I spent close to an hour creating a reply and when I hit the post button it disappeared into the ether. I now have other things to do so you'll just have to wait. Oh, I know, it just breaks your heart not to see my reply immediately, if not sooner. You'll just have to suffer though....

Ah, sorry to hear it. Frustrating as anything when you spend a good deal of time on a response only for it to go into space or something, been there myself on occasion. Well, not space but you get the drift...

I await with baited breath!

 

[Jacob]

The answer to your question is a resounding and emphatic - NO!

What do you obey? It sounds like you do not obey the Law. I wonder what it is that you obey.

Look, you are identified in Christ. You have been crucified with Christ and are hidden in Him. It is no longer you who live but Christ lives His life through you. The law executed you in Christ. What more does the law have to say to one whom it has executed? Can a dead man obey the law? Is a dead man even under the law? Certainly not! You cannot obey a law that has no authority over you.

I don't know what it means when people say that Galatians 2:20 has to do with the execution of the person memorizing the verse.

Should we just do all kinds of evil since the law can do nothing to us? Certainly not! Why would we wish to undermine that which we have been given, namely life, indeed not just life but life from the dead!

Okay.

But, as Paul has taught us, we are still in this flesh and so we find in us an enemy....

Yes.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.​

Good scripture.

So, it is not obedience to the law that you need to focus on, it is Christ! Your righteous will never be found in the law! All you will ever find in the law is frustration, condemnation and death, for that it it's purpose (Romans 7:7-10). Righteousness is found in Christ and in Him only. Christ's righteousness has been imputed to you by God, the Judge of all things. You have been declared righteous and therefore are righteous, whether you act that way or not in your flesh. The key for you is to believe it. Let me repeat that. The key for you is to believe it. The Christian life is not lived by effort but by faith. Faith in what? Faith in the biblical facts concerning your position in Christ. The bible tells us that Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us. Do you believe it or not? That is the question. The more real your position in Christ becomes in your mind, the more your effort to be righteous will end and Christ's life can be lived through you. God will not help you to be righteous. Only He is righteous. He is willing to live His life through you but will not share the glory with your flesh. You must crucify your flesh daily and every time you attempt to obey the law, you resurrect your flesh because the law only has anything to say to your flesh. This is why Paul says that if you permit yourself to become circumcised (i.e. place yourself under the law), Christ will profit you nothing.

Romans 7:10 NASB - 10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;​

Leviticus 18:5 NASB - 5 'So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the LORD.​

Is Paul dealing with a particular application such that the Torah is still valid as Scripture for all the things that he says it is?

The law has been nailed to the cross and taken out of the way. I strongly urge you to leave it there! You do not need the law, you need Christ!

I don't need the Law because I have the Law. I also have Christ.

It's two different topics.

Listening.

The law of Moses was not the beginning of criminal justice. It merely expanded and clarified it.

What was the beginning of criminal justice if not God's Law? Are you staying with the Bible or trying to speak of another history?

I say again, criminal justice is not about the atonement for sin. It is about proper human government and the just management of a civilized society. So long as human beings are rightly in charge of government, God's criminal justice system stands as the standard for criminal justice.

Okay. I follow what you are saying.

So, just because you are in Christ and are forgiven of all sin. If, in your flesh, you commit a crime, the government must punish you for that crime an eye for an eye. Christians commit crime all the time. Imagine if they were allowed to plied "forgiven in Christ" during the trial. Would there be a single criminal who would mouth such a plea?

The government, yes. Are there believers in government? And, is there a best or better government if we are talking about God's government instead like Israel or the kingdom of God or something? I am forgiven in Christ, yes, but I would not call myself a criminal or a sinner because I am forgiven. Otherwise I am both.

I don't understand the question.

I am asking about the divide in your understanding between the criminal justice system and God's criminal justice system. I am wondering if a decision was made not to punish sin but to only punish crime. That would leave you with not all sin being crime.

Sometimes you'll get an answer as to the motive and sometime you will not. But the bible explicitly says not to take any ransom for his life. That would include information that one deemed valuable.

Yes.

Whether he is a believe or not is irrelevant to whether a murderer should be executed. God will deal with his soul. The government is only to deal with his crime.

Should we point out that he has been forgiven? Especially if we know something of him saying so in his life? Otherwise, are we seeking for an opportunity to present the gospel?

I couldn't follow any of this. Sounds like a change of subject anyway.

Disregard. I will ask a question I am thinking of from what I read of my post. Is there a difference between reading and understanding God's Law, being obedient to it or not, and man's justice system? Is it possible to obey God but not man?

By "unresponsive" I simply mean that you didn't respond to the point being made from within the context in which is was made. It was as if you were discussing something else that was maybe somehow connected but not really the same thing.

All good with me here if you are good with it now.

Clete

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

God is dispensational. The bible is full of contraction to the point of meaninglessness if one fails to rightly divide it (i.e. fail to recognize who is being spoken to under which disepensation.)

Are you simply talking about the development of the message not a different morality?

You are not a Jew. I mean, you could and apparently do practice the Jewish religion but God doesn't care about that any more or less than He cares about whether you practive Bhudism. Both/either will land you in the same place.

I am not descended from Judah. But I may be called a Jew by another definition. Judaism has nothing to do with Buddhism. I am a Christian. I have said that I am Jewish.

The biblical use of the word 'proselyte' refers to a non-Israelite converting to and practicing Jewish religion. That's what the word means.

I don't know if it is Jewish religion per say. I believe it is becoming a part of Israel an observing the covenant.

 

[Jacob]

Yeah. In what universe does this respond in any fashion to what I said?

Only because I have seen you post on Cain and murder before, so I am recognizing a different approach, not necessarily wrong.

I answered this two sentences later.

I am asking about what you said about perjury. Bearing false witness may not require a court or courtroom. In other words, is perjury wrong because of God's Law? And, what verse?

I answered this one sentence later.

What is wrong is wrong because God says it is. Or, because we have a verse that we know that says or shows that it is wrong.

No, it isn't that it "can be". That is why it's wrong - period.

Do we have a scripture about committing perjury rather than bearing false witness or do you see them as the same?

What?!

You are so completely hung up on the law and you don't even know the Ten Commandments? What sort of game are you playing here? You'd better get really serious about deciding you want to actually understand what you're talking about because one of these days you won't be discussing this with some anonymous guy on the internet. You will give an account to the God who made you in a face to face that is going to knock your socks off and if I can discover that you're so ignorant of the scriptures as to not even know that the law against perjury is one of the ten commandments, what sort of things are you going to have to explain to your ultimate judge? I'd be scared if I were you! You're relying on your flesh for your righteousness and haven't spent the requisit time required to understand even the most basic aspects of the law nor the foundations of right and wrong.

For example:

Deuteronomy 19:16-19 ESV If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing, then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days. The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.​

You see the person was a witness before he was in court, and he was a malicious witness not a truthful witness.

Many break down the 613 into the 10. Others say perjury is a separate commandment, like homosexuality not being about breaking the adultery commandment.

A question for you....

Is God righteous?

Yes.

If so, why?

Because of who He is and how He conducts Himself.

Clete

Jacob

 

[Jacob]

I am confused by this post, Jacob. I simply cannot see a point being made. Maybe you could restate this in a way that I can understand.

It has to do with filling out forms and the implications of what we say.

Someone who has been in a relationship might say that they are single for some reason. Then what happens if someone who has never been in a relationship says that they are single? Are they (me) more righteous now? Not necessarily. Now what about straight? Do I hate other people? Am I filled with hate? No. But straight might imply to some that I am hate filled. I am not homosexual, but why say that I am straight? I don't see two options, even if straight is not set against homosexuality. Does that clarify it? I didn't really restate it, but that would be or might be too difficult or impossible.

 

[JudgeRightly]

Do we have a scripture about committing perjury rather than bearing false witness or do you see them as the same?

Perjury: the offense of willfully telling an untruth in a court after having taken an oath or affirmation.

Bearing false witness.

 

[Jacob]

Perjury: the offense of willfully telling an untruth in a court after having taken an oath or affirmation.

Bearing false witness.

Being in a court is not required to be convicted of bearing false witness is my point. I believe that there may be other scripture for what happens in court.

 

[Clete]

Jacob,

You're back to being at the same time seemingly endlessly verbose and very nearly totally unresponsive.

You posted three posts and nothing you said in any of them progressed the discuss an inch with one exception which I've responded to at the very bottom of this post. The rest, I could barely read. If you don't stop responding sentence by sentence while completely ignoring the point those sentences make I'll simply disapear and you can waste someone else's time.

What is wrong is wrong because God says it is.

No, God says something is wrong because it is wrong. God doesn't make up morality as He goes. He is just, not arbitrary.

Do we have a scripture about committing perjury rather than bearing false witness or do you see them as the same?

As if it is a matter of opinion!

For example:

Deuteronomy 19:16-19 ESV If a malicious witness arises to accuse a person of wrongdoing, then both parties to the dispute shall appear before the Lord, before the priests and the judges who are in office in those days. The judges shall inquire diligently, and if the witness is a false witness and has accused his brother falsely, then you shall do to him as he had meant to do to his brother. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.​

You see the person was a witness before he was in court, and he was a malicious witness not a truthful witness.

So why are you asking me for verses that you already know exist?

I'm fully fed up with my time being wasted by pedantic questions that cannot be anything other than designed to change the subject and/or avoid the point.

And it doesn't have to happen inside a court room to count as perjury. You sound like a lawyer. It's no wonder God hates lawyers. You're never going to get anywhere if you don't start using some common sense.

Many break down the 613 into the 10. Others say perjury is a separate commandment, like homosexuality not being about breaking the adultery commandment.

WHO CARES?

Read the bible and forget what "others say"!


And now for the stuff that was only slightly less than a total waste of time...

I asked...
Is God righteous and if so why?....

Yes.

Because of who He is and how He conducts Himself.

Well, at least you got one syllable that was actually responsive! How many hours did you spend writing all that waste in order end up with the word "Yes" being the only thing you said that was actually responsive to a single point I made?

The "Because of who He is and how He conducts Himself." part was a text-book example of a tautology. I'm not even going to waste my time explaining what that word means. Look it up, if you care.

Suffice it to say that you are almost totally ignorant of anything that has anything to do with Christianity. You don't know who God is or whether you are saved, you don't understand how to become saved or what it even means to be saved. You need to stop calling yourself a Christian. At this point I have no evidence that you are one and your level of understanding is an embarrassment to the whole of Christianity. You claim to be self-taught. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You know less than nothing.



Look Jacob, I'm not interested in creating an enemy here and I'm having a harder and harder time telling whether you're intentionally wasting my time or whether you're just not up to the task of dealing with this topic in any depth and so I'm going give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is the later and simply stop before I get angry and say something that I regret. If you want to go back through and respond to the major points I made in my posts rather than dissecting them into individual disconnected sentences then I'll read it and if it's worth my time I'll try to continue with you but otherwise, I'm just not interested in meandering down every lateral jump in thought that you can conjure up.

Clete

 

[Jacob]

So you know my mode of responding I have read your post and I am responding paragraph by paragraph rather than line by line or sentence by sentence.

Jacob,

You're back to being at the same time seemingly endlessly verbose and very nearly totally unresponsive.

I don't know what you are measuring here, but your saying this only frustrates me.

You posted three posts and nothing you said in any of them progressed the discuss an inch with one exception which I've responded to at the very bottom of this post. The rest, I could barely read. If you don't stop responding sentence by sentence while completely ignoring the point those sentences make I'll simply disapear and you can waste someone else's time.

It is not my job to tell you how to think. If you know a verse you have the opportunity to post it before I look it up, unless I am able to do so to provide progress in our posts.

No, God says something is wrong because it is wrong. God doesn't make up morality as He goes. He is just, not arbitrary.

To me that means the same thing.

As if it is a matter of opinion!

Perjury may be bearing false witness but if it is it is a kind of bearing false witness, whereas homosexual sin is not a kind of adultery.

So why are you asking me for verses that you already know exist?

To be honest I don't know the subject of bearing false witness as much as I would like. I realize it can make a difference in regard to the subject of homosexuality if a witness has something to say. I can do an internet search as well as you can probably.

I'm fully fed up with my time being wasted by pedantic questions that cannot be anything other than designed to change the subject and/or avoid the point.

I feel that I have addressed the subject from my background with it as it has presented itself. I know someone who was convinced when he spoke to me that perjury is bearing false witness in court.

And it doesn't have to happen inside a court room to count as perjury. You sound like a lawyer. It's no wonder God hates lawyers. You're never going to get anywhere if you don't start using some common sense.

With my interest in the Law maybe I would make a good lawyer or judge. I certainly don't do this for money. God does not hate lawyers. Sometimes lawyers become judges, like attorneys too. You have to understand the argument to be a lawyer. A judge needs to understand the Law as written to be a judge. By the way you are assuming something was my argument that wasn't my argument. Unless you want me to have it already solved.

WHO CARES?

I do.

Read the bible and forget what "others say"!

I was trying to relate the topic to you if you know of this and if you have any of it for your own belief. It helps to know what question to answer if there is one that can be answered. Maybe I knew there was no question, but then again I didn't know that with you.

And now for the stuff that was only slightly less than a total waste of time...

I asked...
Is God righteous and if so why?....

Well, at least you got one syllable that was actually responsive! How many hours did you spend writing all that waste in order end up with the word "Yes" being the only thing you said that was actually responsive to a single point I made?

It had to do with your point not my wanting to answer. In other words, I answered because I could not because I feel that your logic that I wasn't getting something right was correct.

The "Because of who He is and how He conducts Himself." part was a text-book example of a tautology. I'm not even going to waste my time explaining what that word means. Look it up, if you care.

I have looked that word up now. Thank you.

Suffice it to say that you are almost totally ignorant of anything that has anything to do with Christianity. You don't know who God is or whether you are saved, you don't understand how to become saved or what it even means to be saved. You need to stop calling yourself a Christian. At this point I have no evidence that you are one and your level of understanding is an embarrassment to the whole of Christianity. You claim to be self-taught. You ought to be ashamed of yourself. You know less than nothing.

Self-taught means I haven't been taught not that I have. That is not my fault. I mean that I get something out of the effort I put into it. Discussing things with other people is obviously a part of that. Thank you for your discussion with me. If you want to move on you can. I am a Christian. I believe that I have forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ who died on the cross and rose from the dead. I have the free gift of eternal life. But God wants me to obey Him, so I am against those who say not to that I already repented and have no need of forgiveness, etc.... However, being completely forgiven is difficult intellectually knowing that I should be dead by the Law. I do not know why you are down talking me or what you hope to get out of it.

Look Jacob, I'm not interested in creating an enemy here and I'm having a harder and harder time telling whether you're intentionally wasting my time or whether you're just not up to the task of dealing with this topic in any depth and so I'm going give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it is the later and simply stop before I get angry and say something that I regret. If you want to go back through and respond to the major points I made in my posts rather than dissecting them into individual disconnected sentences then I'll read it and if it's worth my time I'll try to continue with you but otherwise, I'm just not interested in meandering down every lateral jump in thought that you can conjure up.

Clete

Which topic? Are you talking about homosexuality? I am against it. As I stated in the OP. The Law is against it. The Bible is against it. I can discuss from there. I do not know what a lateral jump in thought is, nor why you are accusing me of conjuring. Don't get angry. It doesn't do anything for you or me.

Are you familiar with Romans 3:23 NASB and Romans 6:23 NASB? A lot of my doctrine comes from these two verses. I don't know what the wages of sin is death means because I don't know if it should be wages or penalty or payment, nor what wages means.

 

[Jacob]

Bearing False Witness

Bearing False Witness

When in court and possibly not just when you are in court you could as a witness be convicted of perjury, or stating something as true that is false. I do not know what extenuating circumstances would make something appear that way when it is not.

 

[Clete]

Self-taught means I haven't been taught not that I have. That is not my fault. I mean that I get something out of the effort I put into it. Discussing things with other people is obviously a part of that. Thank you for your discussion with me. If you want to move on you can. I am a Christian. I believe that I have forgiveness of sins in Jesus Christ who died on the cross and rose from the dead. I have the free gift of eternal life. But God wants me to obey Him, so I am against those who say not to that I already repented and have no need of forgiveness, etc.... However, being completely forgiven is difficult intellectually knowing that I should be dead by the Law. I do not know why you are down talking me or what you hope to get out of it.

I went over all of this is some detail. That's what all that talk about being identified in Christ was all about. That's what all that talk about our righteousness being Christ's righteousness was all about.

But instead of responding to it, you ignore it and move on like I never said a syllable of it. You mouth the words of a Christian but seem to have no understanding whatsoever of what it means to be a Christian. You very simply cannot understand Christianity and make any attempt to follow the law. You are COMMANDED not to do so! How do you propose to obey God by placing yourself under a law that He has expressly forbidden you to follow? I have stated that to follow the law is to resurrect your flesh and take back down the law which Christ nailed to the cross. But instead of responding to that critical point, you just ignore the entire point and move on to things that don't even seem to be related to the topic at all and then ask me questions that could only be answered by my having to repeat everything I had just said about crucifying the flesh and the law having a ministry of death and Christ having taken it out of the way, etc.

It's not like I'm trying to be frustrated here. Quite the contrary! I'm trying my level best to answer your questions to the best of my ability. This happens to be one of my very favorite topics to discuss but I hate having my time wasted and it's difficult for me to think that anything else is going on when the meat of my posts gets skipped right over like it wasn't there while sentences like "I answered this two sentences later." which don't have anything to do with the real topic being discussed, get quoted individually and responded to.

Which topic? Are you talking about homosexuality? I am against it. As I stated in the OP. The Law is against it. The Bible is against it. I can discuss from there. I do not know what a lateral jump in thought is, nor why you are accusing me of conjuring. Don't get angry. It doesn't do anything for you or me.

I'm not so much angry as I am frustrated. At best, I'm spinning my wheels here.

A lateral jump in thought simply refers to when someone says something disconnected from what is being discussed.

Are you familiar with Romans 3:23 NASB and Romans 6:23 NASB? A lot of my doctrine comes from these two verses. I don't know what the wages of sin is death means because I don't know if it should be wages or penalty or payment, nor what wages means.

Don't over think it. It means what it seams to mean. Death is what you get when you sin.

Which brings up an important point, by the way.

I'm out of time so I'll start down this road by asking you a question that is going to sound sort of cryptic. See if you can discover the answer and I'll elaborate next time I'm on....

What two things in scripture have/had a ministry of death?

Clete