ECT What is Predestination?

Danoh

New member
Per 2 Thessalonians 2; someone had wrested the Scriptures such that the Thessalonians had been led to believe they were in the Day of the Lord's wrath.

Paul's sense in 2 Thess. 2:13 is in reference to that - how that; from the moment they believed, and the Spirit set them apart as the Lord's, in the Lord, as His, in Him, He chose them by that, unto salvation from said Day of the Lord's wrath.

1 Thessalonians 1:

4. Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.
5. For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.
6. And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.
7. So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.
8. For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.
9. For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
10. And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

They were not to view their external circumstances as an evident token that God was against them, rather, they were to view them through the Word they had begun their new life in, that said Word work its effectual working in them as they walked in said Word by faith in the midst of their persecutions.

2 Thessalonians 2:

13. For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.
14. For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:

1 Thessalonians 3:

1. Wherefore when we could no longer forbear, we thought it good to be left at Athens alone;
2. And sent Timotheus, our brother, and minister of God, and our fellowlabourer in the gospel of Christ, to establish you, and to comfort you concerning your faith:
3. That no man should be moved by these afflictions: for yourselves know that we are appointed thereunto.

How were they appointed unto said afflictions?

4. For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.

I told you this would be the case for the Word of His testimony, and here it is - your being afflicted by its enemies. But now he is concerned about the possible impact of said afflictions on their faith:

5. For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

And so this issue goes... to where we read...of a contrast between them as to their standing before the Lord in His Son before God, and those not delivered from His wrath to come.

2 Thessalonians 2:

10. And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13. But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
14. Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15. Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.
16. Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,
17. Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.

Again, saved them from what?

Paul met these people in Acts 17.

It was not Luke's place to say much about what Paul had preached unto them there, beyond "Jesus was very Christ".

Note the following, however, in connection with this issue, as it is not like Paul was not consistent in what he preached to who.

Acts 17:

24. God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;
25. Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he giveth to all life, and breath, and all things;
26. And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation;
27. That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:
28. For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.
29. Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
30. And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31. Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
32. And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.
33. So Paul departed from among them.

That Day of His Wrath is an aspect of that - 2 Thess. 2: 12. That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

As sure as His resurrection from the dead was the Thessalonians' seal of their salvation from His wrath to come, from the moment they believed, so was was the certainty that those who did not believe would be dammed in that Day.

2 Thessalonians 2:

5. Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
Evidently you do not even understand what the words "in Him" mean. Do you think that someone can be In Christ before he has heard the gospel and before he has believed it?
Evidently you don't understand the words "before the foundation of the world."


Jerry said:
That is what I said. One is not predestined unto salvation until he is called by the gospel and believes it.
I know that this is what you said. It just contradicts what Paul said in Romand 8:29-30. That's why what you said is wrong.

Jerry said:
That can only mean that the calling happens before the one who believes is predestined.
:nono:

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom 8:30 NKJ)​

I'm sorry you don't like the order the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to articulate the chain of redemption. But your not liking it doesn't erase what is clear form the text.

Jerry said:
But you say that being predestined happens prior to one's calling.
No, no.

Paul say that being predestined happens prior to one's calling.

Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified. (Rom 8:30 NKJ)[/quote]


Again Jerry, why do think Paul got Romans 9:30 wrong?​
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Again Jerry, why do think Paul got Romans 9:30 wrong?

You have never proved that those things are in chronological order. You whole argument rests on what is just an assumption.

Now let us look at this verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

No one is predestined to salvation until they are chosen.

And no one is chosen to salvation until they believe the truth.

Anyone with an open mind can see that. Can you agree with that?

Since being predestined does not happen until one believes then we can know that believing happens before one is predestined. Can you agree with that?

So we can understand that believing precedes being predestined. And being called by the gospel precedes believing. Therefore, being called by the gospel MUST precede being predestined.

Now if what I said here is in error then tell me exactly what I said that is in error.
 

Puppet

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You have never proved that those things are in chronological order. You whole argument rests on what is just an assumption.

Now let us look at this verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

No one is predestined to salvation until they are chosen.

And no one is chosen to salvation until they believe the truth.

Anyone with an open mind can see that. Can you agree with that?

Since being predestined does not happen until one believes then we can know that believing happens before one is predestined. Can you agree with that?

So we can understand that believing precedes being predestined. And being called by the gospel precedes believing. Therefore, being called by the gospel MUST precede being predestined.

Now if what I said here is in error then tell me exactly what I said that is in error.

Sounds like error to me
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
You have never proved that those things are in chronological order.
Why would I need to prove what is glaringly obvious.

The rest of the bible is clear that calling precedes justification and justification precedes glorification. The fact that these three are in order suggests strongly that the other elements are as well. Furthermore, I don't know of anyone who disagrees that God's foreknowing us is out of order in Romans 8:29-30. So the onus is on you to prove that Paul intentionally or unintentionally misplaced predestination.

There aren't any significant textual variants in the order of verses 29-30 so the alternatives are that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to put them in a jumbled up mess (which undermines Paul's whole point) or Paul got it wrong (which undermines a responsible theory of inspiration).

Since responsible theology prevents me from embracing either of these two options I am left with only one logical conclusion.

You refuse to see that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to put them in the order that the bible lists them for a reason and your refusal to embrace the order is evidence that your conclusions are in error. That means that you have erred in reasoning along the way and it is not really all that hard to see where you have erred.

Jerry said:
You whole argument rests on what is just an assumption.
As apposed to the assumption that Paul got it wrong, or the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to list them willy nilly in a jumbled up mess?

:nono:

The order is inspired and correct, your argument is erronious.

Jerry said:
Now let us look at this verse again:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

No one is predestined to salvation until they are chosen.
This verse says no such thing.

First, you appear not to be able to read "hath from the beginning" nor comprehend what it means that God has chosen us.

So what did He choose us for?

Easy answer, simple reading comprehension.

Salvation.

And what does that salvation come through, Jerry?

Two things.

Sanctification of the Spirit and belief in the truth.

Jerry said:
And no one is chosen to salvation until they believe the truth.
This statement could not be more wrong.

The text says that they are chosen for salvation which can only mean that they were chosen before they were saved. And since that salvation comes through the Spirit's sanctification and belief, the choosing comes first.

Jerry said:
Anyone with an open mind can see that. Can you agree with that?
Not at all. Anyone with an open mind and closed bible might agree with you, but if you carefully look at what 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says, you cannot come to the conclusion you are suggesting.

Jerry said:
Since being predestined does not happen until one believes...
Whatever follows is irrelevant because you are starting with a faulty premise. Predestination does not happen after one believes, it happens prior to belief as Romans 8:29-30 suggests and as 2 Thess 2:13 confirms.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The text says that they are chosen for salvation which can only mean that they were chosen before they were saved.

It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you on this subject as long as you continue to pervert the meaning of this verse:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

The reason why God chooses some for salvation is because they believe the truth of the gospel--"belief of the truth."

In this instance the Greek word translated "through" means "of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished...by means of, by (through)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 a person is chosen to salvation by belief of the truth.

According to your perversion a person is chosen for salvation before they believe even though the Scriptures reveal that salvation does not come until a person believes:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​
 

Puppet

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It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you on this subject as long as you continue to pervert the meaning of this verse:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

The reason why God chooses some for salvation is because they believe the truth of the gospel--"belief of the truth."

In this instance the Greek word translated "through" means "of the instrument or means by or with which anything is accomplished...by means of, by (through)" (Thayer's Greek English Lexicon).

So according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 a person is chosen to salvation by belief of the truth.

According to your perversion a person is chosen for salvation before they believe even though the Scriptures reveal that salvation does not come until a person believes:

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek" (Ro.1:16).​

They believed cause they were caused by God.
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
It is impossible to have an intelligent discussion with you on this subject as long as you continue to pervert the meaning of this verse:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

The reason why God chooses some for salvation is because they believe the truth of the gospel--"belief of the truth."...


...So according to 2 Thessalonians 2:13 a person is chosen to salvation by belief of the truth.
Wrong.

You are changing the wording of that verse.

2 Thess 2:13 does not say "because God from the beginning chose you on account of your salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,"

It says:

"because God from the beginning chose you for (εις) salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2Th 2:13 NKJ, Greek added)"

In this instance the greek word εις means, "into, toward, in the direction of," it is a marker of goal describing the results of God's choosing. It does not mean the "reason" for God's choosing as you want to make it mean.

There is no way you can make the word εις mean, "basis" or "reason for" as you do when you make the following clearly fallacious statement:

Jerry said:
The reason why God chooses some for salvation is because they believe the truth of the gospel--"belief of the truth."
The word εις makes it clear that this statement is completely false. The word εις tells us that the goal of God's choosing, what God choose us for, the result of God's choosing is salvation and this is accomplished through the Spirit's sanctification and belief (which no one disputes).

You need to look up the Greek word εις so that you can dialog intelligently on this verse.

Before you move on to misreading another verse, lets see if you can correctly handle this one.
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
It says:

"because God from the beginning chose you for (εις) salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2Th 2:13 NKJ, Greek added)"

In this instance the greek word εις means, "into, toward, in the direction of," it is a marker of goal describing the results of God's choosing.

We were discussing the meaning of the Greek word translated "through" and you said nothing about that. Instead you begin to talk about the meaning of the Greek word translated "for," something which I said nothing about.

All you did was to completely change the subject. Now please go back and this time actually address what I said about the Greek word translated "through."

You are changing the wording of that verse.

I did no such thing. I quoted from the KJV where it says "to salvation" and those are the exact same words which I used.

The text says that they are chosen for salvation which can only mean that they were chosen before they were saved.

They are chosen while they are 'in Him":

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

Despite these facts you say that they were chosen before they were saved.

So please answer my question. Do you think that someone can be "in Him" prior to salvation?
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
We were discussing the meaning of the Greek word translated "through"...
You were discussing the meaning of the Greek word εν which in this verse means "by means of" or "through." Thayer's def. is fine. I know what it means and what it doesn't mean and it doesn't mean "because of" and neither does "εις."

So I am curious where you are getting your strange ideas that the verse means what you say here:
Jerry said:
The reason why God chooses some for salvation is because they believe the truth of the gospel--"belief of the truth."...

I don't dispute God chose us to be saved by means of Holy Spirit sanctification and belief in truth.

Jerry said:
...and you said nothing about that. Instead you begin to talk about the meaning of the Greek word translated "for," something which I said nothing about.
First, this is a two way conversation not a lecture. If I don't respond the way you want me to you can deal with it or move on.

Second, your initial point is fallacious because "εν" doesn't mean "because of." It means, "by means of" which I don't dispute and which doesn't make your case.

Third, the fact that you don't want to talk about what εις means doesn't erase it from the text nor does it invalidate what it means and therefore implies in the passage; namely that salvation is the result of God's choice.

Jerry said:
Now please go back and this time actually address what I said about the Greek word translated "through."
Again, if you don't like my replies, then feel free not to read them. I reserve the right to ignore ridiculous claims as I see fit.
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
You were discussing the meaning of the Greek word εν which in this verse means "by means of" or "through." Thayer's def. is fine.

So it is obvious that the part in "bold" found in this verse is saying that God chose us for salvation by means of belief in the truth:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

So this means that it is not until a person believes and is saved that he is chosen for salvation. Despite these facts you say that they were chosen before they were saved:

The text says that they are chosen for salvation which can only mean that they were chosen before they were saved.

It is clear that what is said at 2 Thess. 2:13 proves that you are wrong.

We also know that They are chosen while they are 'in Him":

"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love" (Eph.1:4).​

Once a person is "in Him" or "in Christ" he is saved:

"Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory" (2 Tim.2:10).​

"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began" (2 Tim.1:9).​

So we can see that being chosen before the foundation of the world is in regard to salvation since the elect are chosen "in Him." In other words, no one can be chosen "in Him" unless salvation is secured.

Despite these facts you say that they were chosen before they were saved.

So please answer my question. Do you think that someone can be "in Him" prior to salvation?
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
So it is obvious that the part in "bold" found in this verse is saying that God chose us for salvation by means of belief in the truth:

"But we are bound to give thanks always to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

So this means that it is not until a person believes and is saved that he is chosen for salvation.
No. This isn't what this means at all. You seem to have the continued propensity to look straight at a verse and miss the point entirely.

A person is chosen, from the beginning!!! That doesn't mean from the beginning of the day it means from the beginning of time, creation, etc.. God has chosen the elect for salvation from the beginning. The passage tells us straight out when the elect were chosen. You actually have to leap over the part of the verse that tells you when God chose in order to make the silly statement that God chosen when they believed.

Through ("en" in Greek) tells us how God saves, not when they were chosen. The fact that God uses the Spirit's sanctification and the person's belief in the truth as the means by which He saves does not erase when He chose them, does it?

:nono:

And when according to the verse, does it say He chose them?

:readthis:

...because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2Th 2:13 NKJ)​

Hmmmm?

Please answer this.

Hint, the answer is in bold, staring you in the face.


Jerry said:
Despite these facts you say that they were chosen before they were saved:
Define the Greek word "εις" for me Jerry.

What does it mean?
 
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Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
The fact that God uses the Spirit's sanctification and the person's belief in the truth as the means by which He saves does not erase when He chose them, does it?

So you admit that this verse is saying that from before the world began the Lord chose some for salvation and the means by which he saved them is by belief in the truth:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

This obviously is speaking of the "foreknowledge" of God the Father:

"Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit" (1 Pet.1:2).​

So the Father, before the earth began, looks into the future and no one is predestinated to salvation until they first are called by the gospel and believe the gospel.

Therefore, calling precedes believing and believing precedes being predestined.

From this we can know that this verse is not naming these things in chronological order:

"Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified" (Ro.8:30).​
 

Dialogos

Well-known member
So you admit that this verse is saying that from before the world began the Lord chose some for salvation and the means by which he saved them is by belief in the truth:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​
Perhaps you missed my previous reply which answers this point directly:

me said:
So it is obvious that the part in "bold" found in this verse is saying that God chose us for salvation by means of belief in the truth:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​

So this means that it is not until a person believes and is saved that he is chosen for salvation.
No. This isn't what this means at all. You seem to have the continued propensity to look straight at a verse and miss the point entirely.

A person is chosen, from the beginning!!! That doesn't mean from the beginning of the day it means from the beginning of time, creation, etc.. God has chosen the elect for salvation from the beginning. The passage tells us straight out when the elect were chosen. You actually have to leap over the part of the verse that tells you when God chose in order to make the silly statement that God chosen when they believed.

Through ("en" in Greek) tells us how God saves, not when they were chosen. The fact that God uses the Spirit's sanctification and the person's belief in the truth as the means by which He saves does not erase when He chose them, does it?

:nono:

And when according to the verse, does it say He chose them?

:readthis:

...because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, (2Th 2:13 NKJ)​

Hmmmm?

Please answer this.

Hint, the answer is in bold, staring you in the face.


Jerry said:
Despite these facts you say that they were chosen before they were saved:
Define the Greek word "εις" for me Jerry.

What does it mean?


2 Thess 2:13 says both how we are saved and when God chose us.

We were chosen from the beginning, that's the when, Jerry.

We were saved through sanctification and belief, that's the how, Jerry.

Tell me you get this before I go on and address how you are butchering 1 Peter 1:2.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
Perhaps you missed my previous reply which answers this point directly:




2 Thess 2:13 says both how we are saved and when God chose us.

We were chosen from the beginning, that's the when, Jerry.

We were saved through sanctification and belief, that's the how, Jerry.

Tell me you get this before I go on and address how you are butchering 1 Peter 1:2.

good parts in the post - but we are all elect -

this is in response to the boxed part of your post
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
We were chosen from the beginning, that's the when, Jerry.

We were saved through sanctification and belief, that's the how, Jerry.

You evidently do not know a thing about the "foreknowledge" of God.

According to that foreknowledge he will not predestinate anyone to salvation until he looks into the future and sees a person believing. And then he predestinates him.

Therefore, being called and believing the gospel precedes predestination.

But since you have no understanding of the meaning of the "foreknowledge" of the Father you believe the most ridiculous thing--that the Father predestines to salvation those who have not yet believed.

But this verse makes it plain that it is those who believe who are predestined to salvation:

"But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you for salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth" (2 Thess.2:13).​
 
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