What is going on in Daniel 9?

[Elia]

Daniel 9 is all about the son of God, you choose not to see it.

Bs"d

It's all about the Jews and Jerusalem. It's written right there. Why can't you see that?

"“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city".

"Serve Y-H-W-H!

And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[jamie]

It's all about the Jews and Jerusalem. It's written right there. Why can't you see that?

"“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city".

Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city. To whom does the people and the city belong?

 

[keypurr]

Bs"d

It's all about the Jews and Jerusalem. It's written right there. Why can't you see that?

"“Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city".

"Serve Y-H-W-H!

And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

No friend, it is much deeper. It speaks of the time span for the Jews to repent and expect the Messiah to appear. It speaks of his death and the message going to the Gentiles. It says when to look for the Christ of God.

To see it will require you to open your thoughts past your traditions.

 

[Elia]

Seventy weeks are determined for your people and for your holy city. To whom does the people and the city belong?

Bs"d

To who is the angel speaking?
“O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you skill to understand. 23 At the beginning of your supplications the command went out, and I have come to tell you, for you are greatly beloved; therefore consider the matter, and understand the vision:
24 “Seventy weeks[a] are determined
For your people and for your holy city,"

So it is obvious that it speaks about Daniel's people and Daniel's city.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

No friend, it is much deeper. It speaks of the time span for the Jews to repent and expect the Messiah to appear. It speaks of his death and the message going to the Gentiles. It says when to look for the Christ of God.

Bs"d

Daniel 9 speaks about TWO messiahs, the first one to appear 49 years after the outgoing of the word:

"The Hebrew text says: "from the outgoing of the word restore and to built Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and sixty-two weeks shall the street be built again and the wall, even in troubled times." The 7 weeks and the 62 weeks are not connected in the text. It makes no sense to connect them, because when the Bible wants to give a time period of 69 weeks, why should it write then 7 weeks and 62 weeks, instead of 69 weeks? Therefore the Revised Standard Version says: "from the going forth of the word to restore and built Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again, with squares and moat, …." The RSV has it right. Just like the RSV is correct in Isaiah 7:14; 'young woman' instead of 'virgin'.

The King James in itself gives an reasonable literal translation of these verses as far as the time frames are concerned, except for the colon, the two dots on top of each other, right after the words 'three score and two weeks:' This colon is not to be found in the original text of Daniel. Read now the KJV text without this colon: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to built Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublous times." Here you see that without that colon inserted by the translators the KJV says basically the same as the RSV. Now you might understand why there is a big "King James only" movement. When you read the Bible in an accurate translation, Christianity already starts to fall apart.

And also "The Message" translates this correct: "Here is what you must understand: From the time the word goes out to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Anointed Leader, there will be seven sevens. The rebuilding will take sixty-two sevens, including building streets and digging a moat. Those will be rough times."

And also the English Standard Version translates this correct: "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time."

"from the going forth of the word to restore and built Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks." So seven prophetic weeks after the outgoing of the word, this is 49 years, a messiah has to come already. What is the outgoing of the word to restore and rebuild Jerusalem? The first one who spoke about the Jewish people returning from exile and rebuilding Jerusalem was the prophet Jeremiah, who prophesized this in the beginning of the Babylonian exile. It was his prophecies which Daniel was studying when he got the vision under discussion, see the beginning of Daniel 9. So from the outgoing of that word, until messiah the prince, would be seven weeks."

And then another messiah would be cut off and have nothing, after the 69 weeks.

Check it out here: Daniel 9

To see it will require you to open your thoughts past your traditions.


"Serve Y-H-W-H!

And if it seems evil to you to serve Y-H-W-H, choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell.
But as for me and my house, we will serve Y-H-W-H!.”
Joshua 24:14-15

 

[chrysostom]

daniel 9 talks about the holy place
so
there should be no doubt as to what is in the holy place now
and
how it got there

 

[Elia]

daniel 9 talks about the holy place
so
there should be no doubt as to what is in the holy place now
and
how it got there

Bs"d

The holy place is Jerusalem en the Temple.




"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[dialm]

Bs"d

Here you can see how the KJV is corrupted for the sake of fitting your messiah into Daniel 9:

About these seven weeks, there is something fishy going on in the King James. The 1611 KJV gives that verse in the correct form: " Know therefore and vnderstand, that from the going foorth of the commandement to restore and to build Ierusalem, vnto the Messiah the Prince, shall be seuen weekes; and threescore and two weekes, the street shall be built againe, and the wall, euen in troublous times."

See here: http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/...apter=9&verse=

We see there in the original 1611 KJV, that the colon is in the right place, right after the seven weeks.
This is changed around 1800. The accompanying explanation was that they wanted it to be more in line with the christological exegesis.

So they admitted that that translation was corrupted in order to squeeze JC into it.

So if anybody doubted the fact that the Christian Bible translations are corrupted in order to prove Christianity with it, here is the proof.



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

The way the original 1611 reads it has the leaders of the nation of Israel trying to destroy the Messiah. (Exactly what happened. Those leaders tried to destroy Christ but in the process destroyed themselves.)

But the real problem is that the later editions try to make the One who the leaders tried to destroy an evil person. If the KJV is corrupted it just happens to be in the latter editions.

There is nothing wrong with the 1611. The prob is with Scofield and the Crew.

 

[dialm]

There are many examples of conspiracy in the Bible. Most of the time they are written about out right. Other times the conspiracy is just beneath the surface. Still other times the conspiracy is very well hidden. Martin Luther uncovered just such a conspiracy. It made him angry. He brought down a curse in his great anger. This curse will be enforce as long as there are Protestants remaining on the Earth. We are carriers like Jonah. Throw us over board and we will be raised up seven times hotter than the last time. A frightful thought considering what has gone before. (If I was under such a curse I would sue for peace.)

 

[Elia]

The way the original 1611 reads it has the leaders of the nation of Israel trying to destroy the Messiah.

Bs"d

You are seeing things which don't exist.

If anybody wants to know what is going on in Daniel 9, look here: Daniel 9



"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever.".
Micah 4:5

 

[Elia]

I think you're a little too wrapped up in the Jewish perspective and bitterness that they missed Jesus and killed the Messiah instead.

Bs"d

The real messiah is going to fulfil the messianic prophecies, something in which the Christian messiah failed, and he is not going to get himself killed.

 

[Elia]

Page not found.

why don't you just paste the two renditions and ID them. One without the colon and one with.

Bs"d

This link should work: http://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/1611_Daniel-9-25/

 

[beameup]

The Hebrew had no "punctuation marks" when Daniel wrote. That is laughable. :rotfl:
From history we know that it took 49 years (seven shabuwa`) to build the walls and gates of Jerusalem, under Nehemiah.
All this about "two Messiahs" is pure rabbinical nonsense to deceive the Jewish "sheep". [Two Powers, on the other hand, is BCE Jewish theology].
The greatest Hebrew sage (rabbi) of all, Nahmanides, commenting on this passage, said that the Messiah simply "failed to show up" at the appointed time.

Really, my Jewish sheeple, you need to get the facts, as you will either spend eternity in the presence of a loving God... or the opposite.

 

[patrick jane]

Bs"d

The real messiah is going to fulfil the messianic prophecies, something in which the Christian messiah failed, and he is not going to get himself killed.

:rotfl:

 

[Elia]

The Hebrew had no "punctuation marks" when Daniel wrote. That is laughable. :rotfl:

Bs"d

Who says it does? As usual you are seeing things which don't exist.

From history we know that it took 49 years (seven shabuwa`) to build the walls and gates of Jerusalem, under Nehemiah.

That's an awful long time, 49 years to build a wall. Where do you get that from?

All this about "two Messiahs" is pure rabbinical nonsense to deceive the Jewish "sheep". [Two Powers, on the other hand, is BCE Jewish theology].
The greatest Hebrew sage (rabbi) of all, Nahmanides, commenting on this passage, said that the Messiah simply "failed to show up" at the appointed time.

Where is that commentary of the Nahmanides?

The simple reading of the Hebrew (without punctuation marks) shows that the messiah should have come after 7 weeks.

This is attested to by the original 1611 King James, and by the following translations:

The the Revised Standard Version says: "from the going forth of the word to restore and built Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again, with squares and moat, …." .

The King James in itself gives an reasonable literal translation of these verses as far as the time frames are concerned, except for the colon, the two dots on top of each other, right after the words 'three score and two weeks:' This colon is not to be found in the original text of Daniel. Read now the KJV text without this colon: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to built Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks the street shall be built again and the wall, even in troublous times." Here you see that without that colon inserted by the translators the KJV says basically the same as the RSV. Now you might understand why there is a big "King James only" movement. When you read the Bible in an accurate translation, Christianity already starts to fall apart.

The sad part of the story is that the original 1611 King James gave this verse in the right way, with the colon in the right place, as you can see HERE. Around 1800 the place of the colon is changed, and in a footnote they mentioned that that was done so that their messiah would fit in better. They openly admitted changing the translation to fit their Christian theology.

And also "The Message" translates this correct: "Here is what you must understand: From the time the word goes out to rebuild Jerusalem until the coming of the Anointed Leader, there will be seven sevens. The rebuilding will take sixty-two sevens, including building streets and digging a moat. Those will be rough times."

And also the English Standard Version translates this correct: "Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time."

So it is clear from the Hebrew text and those translations, that a messiah should have come after 7 weeks.

And another one who died in the 70th week, which was when the Temple was destroyed, around the year 70.

So also there the Christian messiah doesn't fit.


For the whole story about Daniel 9 look HERE.

 

[beameup]

We actually have the 3 decrees dated. From the last decree (Artaxerxes Longamonus) adding 483 years brings us to the 2nd decade Common Era. Ezra and Nehemiah provide good info on this.
70 AD doesn't fit. But you knew that didn't you? Pulling-the-wool?
I'm sure that you knew that the heathen that moved in during the Jewish absence and surrounded Jerusalem caused constant delays and fighting, which greatly slowed down the rebuilding. But you already knew that didn't you? Pully-wooley?

Actually, there are quite a few Jewish sages (rabbis) that were disappointed that Messiah didn't come in the 2nd decade of the Common Era, and wrote about it. But I'm certain that a modern-day "rabbi" would never willingly divulge that information to the Jewish "sheeple" $upporting him, would he?

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A verse from Ruach 'Elohiym:

And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart, and I will be found of you, saith YHWH

 

[Elia]

70 AD doesn't fit. But you knew that didn't you?

Bs"d

Yes, I know that 70 doesn't fit, but it only doesn't fit in the Christian narrative. That's how we know that the christian understanding of Daniel 9 is wrong.

Because the prophecy ends with this: "And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."

So in the end of the prophecy Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed. And that happened in the year 70.

Therefore the prophecy has to end in the year 70.

And that cannot fit in the Christian narrative, and therefore the Christian explanation of Daniel 9 is wrong.

I'm sure that you knew that the heathen that moved in during the Jewish absence and surrounded Jerusalem caused constant delays and fighting, which greatly slowed down the rebuilding. But you already knew that didn't you?

It is very simple: The prophecy ends with the destruction of Jerusalem en the Temple in 70. The prophecy encompasses 490 years, therefore it begins in 70 minus 490 is in 420 before.

Very simple arithmetic.

But then again, when you already cannot understand that 1 + 1 = 2, and not 1, then this might be too difficult for you.

 

[beameup]

Bs"d

Yes, I know that 70 doesn't fit, but it only doesn't fit in the Christian narrative. That's how we know that the christian understanding of Daniel 9 is wrong.

Because the prophecy ends with this: "And the people of the prince who is to come
Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary."

So in the end of the prophecy Jerusalem and the Temple would be destroyed. And that happened in the year 70.

Therefore the prophecy has to end in the year 70.

And that cannot fit in the Christian narrative, and therefore the Christian explanation of Daniel 9 is wrong.

Your problem is that this was the "Jewish narrative" in the 1st century AD. But that little bit of information just doesn't fit into your "narrative". Of course, it is forbidden for you to even read Daniel 9 as it will bring a "curse" on you (according to your "gurus"... rabbis).
I suppose you could plug your ears with your fingers and blindfold yourself and "throw dust into the air". :rotfl:

Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passions, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.

John Adams

AD 70 was just a "preview of coming attractions" as you will experience the Time of Jacob's Trouble (ie: Day of the Lord). Jeremiah 30:7 - Look it up... if you dare. :rapture: adios

 

[CherubRam]

[FONT=&quot]Gathering of the Teacher[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Dead Sea Scrolls.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Col B19: From the day of the gathering in of the Teacher of the Community until the end of all the men of war who deserted to the Liar, there shall pass about forty years.[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Col B 20: None of the men who enter the New Covenant in the land of Damascus and who again betray it and depart from the fountain of living waters, shall be reckoned with the Council of the people or inscribed in its Book, from the day of gathering in of the Teacher of the Community until the comings of the Messiah out of Aaron and Israel.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Luke 3:23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Now Yahshua himself was about thirty years old when he began his ministry.[/FONT][FONT=&quot] He was the son, so it was thought, of Joseph, the son of Heli,[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Yahshua began his preaching at age thirty, and from that time to the destruction of the temple, forty years had passed. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]"Messiah of Aaron and Israel." Priest and nation, Knowledge and wisdom.[/FONT][FONT=&quot]

Dead Sea Scrolls: The Damascus Rule.#6. "But God remembered the Covenant with the forefathers, and He raised from Aaron men of discernment and from Israel men of wisdom,".

The Community Rule (1QS) D.S.S. #9. "until there shall come the prophet and Messiah of Aaron and Israel". [Aaron and Israel: Aaron was the high priest of the nation Israel.]

Yahshua is the Messiah of Aaron and Israel.
Isaiah 11:2
The Spirit of the LORD will rest on him— the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD...

Luke 2:40-47. 40. And the child grew and became strong; he was filled with wisdom, and the grace of God was upon him. 47. Everyone who heard him was amazed at his understanding and his answers.

1Cor 1:30. It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God...[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]

 

[CherubRam]

[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Anointed ones of Aaron and Israel[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]And they shall not depart from any counsel of the law to walk in all the stubbornness of their heart, but they shall be governed by the first ordinances in which the members of the community began their instruction, until the coming of the prophet and the anointed ones of Aaron and Israel [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Manual of discipline 9.9b-11[/FONT][FONT=&quot][/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]“They,” meaning the people of Yahwah are to keep the Mosaic laws of the covenant, until the coming of Messiah and his anointed disciples. Whereas Aaron and Israel was used before in a parable to mean wisdom and knowledge, this time it is used to mean anointed ones of the priest and nation. Yahshua is that high priest and prophet, and his disciples are the anointed ones that were chosen.[/FONT]