The Kingdom message is no more.
ECT What gospel was Paul saved under?
- Thread starter Lazy afternoon
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Where/when it fully transitioned is the question.
Any opinions are welcome. This question is only for "Maddest's."
Although with all due respect, we must not forget, Paul was the Apostle to the Gentiles.
Paul's message was different from that coming from Peter and the rest. (The Kingdom message was only for the Jews)
SaulToPaul 2
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Indeed.
During Acts- he went to the Jew first (the circumcision whose circumcision was made uncircumcision) and the Greek.
Post Acts- he was sent to all men without distinction.
It must be mentioned, Paul only preached the "Grace message." The Kingdom message was preached only to the House of Israel by Christ and Peter and the rest.
It appears to "make no sense." Depends on the extent of detail one is looking at a thing from.
Just as MAD appears to not make sense to those NOT MAD; due their limited awareness of all the many details in Scripture that TOGETHER paint the picture we MADs have been privelged to see.
Anyway, the physical you brought up...
God looks on "the heart of man."
With the Spirit's condemning words to "all Israel" through Stephen, Israel had been concluded a part of the (Gentile) world's rebellion...
The Gentile's UNcircumcision in the flesh represented their spiritual uncircumcision - represented their being without God, and thus, without hope in the world.
This, as a result of what is related about the Gentiles in Genesis 11, and later elaborated on further by the Apostle Paul in Romans 1:18-3:20; where he presents God's case as it were, before the world; first as to how the Gentiles ended up concluded "under sin" and then follows on that with how the Jew ended up also concluded "under sin."
In Early Acts, Israel, as had been Prophesied, was then headed towards ending up being concluded having joined the world's (the Gentiles') rebellion, thus why the following, earlier in Acts...
Acts 4:23 And being let go, they went to their own company, and reported all that the chief priests and elders had said unto them. 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together, 4:28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done. 4:29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word, 4:30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.
A few points...
1-As the above makes obvious; both Israel's rebellion against the LORD and His Christ; and the wrath that would come upon Israel and the world, as a result, were both Prophesied.
This is why assertions about what 70AD had actually been about, are often off-base (even within MAD sometimes), by the way; but that is another topic.
2-You'll note that Acts 4:28-29 above, reads like the Epistles of James, Cephas, and John to "they of the circumcision which believed."
It is the issue of encouraging them towards their enduring through the wrath that THE WORLD was THEN headed for.
My quote there is from this passage here...
Acts 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It refers to "they of the circumcision" who had believed THEIR "gospel of Circumcision" WHEN it WAS STILL in operation BEFORE this took place...
Romans 11:7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.
The rest were concluded blinded, or as having continued in their father's UNcircumcision of the heart...
Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye. 7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers: 7:53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept it. 7:54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with their teeth.
The "in part" in the following refers to a temporal issue, NOT to Israel's some remainder of believing remnant not sealed and out there in need of Paul to come along and preach them into the Body.
Paul was going to Israelites concluded "under sin" - UNcircumcision of the heart - NOT to the Believing remnant of Israel.
Both Jew and Gentile were now UNcircumcision - both concluded "under sin."
Anyway, this "in part" below is about a time issue...
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
It is the same as saying that blindness is happened to Israel, FOR NOW, that is to say, UNTIL the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Fact is that Paul was not sent to "the Jew first" - that was actually HIS doing.
Thus, his debating the Lord on this - just as Abraham, and Jacob, and Moses, and Peter, had also been able to do given EACH their INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT roles in God's Plans and Purpose (again, another topic in itself).
Acts 9:15 But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
Acts 26:15 And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. 26:16 But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; 26:17 Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, 26:18 To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
Acts 26:19 Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: 26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. 26:21 For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.
As seen above, Paul had been separated from Israel on thr road to Damascus.
That is what this is...
Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
Israel is his mother...
Revelation 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
These issues are all tied together. That is what the word "complex" refers to, in contrast to the word "complicated" (again, another important topic).
3- When Israel sufffers for its rebellion ALL Israel does.
You know all that "God inspired" foolishness too many Believers believe about our nevertheless even now, amazing country; our beloved U.S. of A.?
The belief God inspired the U.S. is nothing more than the result of the Replacement Theology that was already entrenched in the minds of the various founders of our great country.
Israel ALONE was, was meant to be, and will be "one nation under God."
Even some MADs forget this.
Which brings me to my point...
When Israel was concluded "under sin;" their Believing remnant sealed; they were headed towards the Day of the Lord WITH THEIR nation (see Daniel's prayer; in Daniel 9).
This here...
Romans 3:19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Right then, the world was at this point here...
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Israel headed towards the trial of their purging (again why 70 was NOT it) their Believing remant headed towards the trying of their faith (see also, Malachi 3-4; and Matt. 3)
BUT for this here...
Romans 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound: 5:21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Romans 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
GM; I have been admitting throughout this post that there are many issues connected with one another.
In this, should various points not appear clear; they will, over time, as more time in the Scripture begins to fill in other aspects in between.
Study out Paul's phrase "manifold wisdom" Eph. 3:10.
That sense is how these things function - many, interconnected folds that together reveal the wisdom of God, or...what He is up to...His plan and purpose...
Here that sense is, again..blowing away the Apostle Paul's own mind: the result being; his rejoicing in it all...
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.
Again, Mattew thru John details preaching to the house of Israel.
Early Acts expands on that to ALL Israel , or, BOTH Houses.
As Stam had rightly referred to such FINER points - "Things That Differ."
Though I don't agree with him that verse 10, below is referring to Dispensational issues...
Philippians 1:9 And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; 1:10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; 1:11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
All Paul is relating to us MADs there is that whenever we have differences with ONE ANOTHER we would do well to distinguish BETWEEN whatever our focus is, and what it should be.
How do I know?
Because it is a common theme in Paul's writings...
Romans 12:3 For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
He is saying that if we MADs focus on what matters TO THE LORD - our love IN HIM towards one another no matter how smart or how dumb or how special or not, we perceive ourselves and or another, we will "be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ;" we will be filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."
Notice who and what the MAD's focus is to be - Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God.
I say that was written to MADs, by the way, out of my conviction that MADs were who Paul was writing to.
No, I'm not excusing myself from my share of my nonsense.
I know this much, though.
Every now and then, one person or another will pm me asking if I am against some of my fellow MADs.
I have often reflected on why that question is asked of me.
My consistent thank you of posts by those I at times differ with on some understandings should speak for itself.
Can they say the same? No.
The wrong person is being asked the question asked of me :chuckle:
I find that amusing - how that the need to distinguish between the things that differ is an aspect of life found in all areas of life...
A thought, GM and all...
Consider making a habit of noting the things that differ in all aspects of life as you go about your day.
Later, when you study the Scripture, you'll find yourself able to pick up on some really cool distinctions between things you'd not noted before; or that might take you longer to see but for your much more fully developed discernment muscle: the result of applying the things that differ principle to much more than the faith
Ephesians 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 3:20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us, 3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.
That was Paul's doing.
He was not sent unto the Jew first.
That was his doing - out of his love for his own, together with his thinking they would hear him out as he had been their chief sinner.
As in the OT with Moses and others, the Lord allowed Paul to find out the hard way that Israel "will NOT receive thy testimony concerning me," Acts 22:18 - and for Paul's own strengthening through experience with his hardened nation, that the Lord knows why the Lord decrees what He does, as to who, what, when, where, why, and how, He does.
Complex, not...complicated. Big difference, brother
Simple, not simplistic...
I agree.
When bickering riles up between us, we are not thinking too highly of the BOC.
Should the foot say to the hand that it's actions are more useful than the actions of the hand?
Those who have patiently keep his word :straight: are going in the rapture (Re 3:10 ESV). :rapture:
I don't see any biblical evidence that any Apostles ever taught circumcision beyond Pentecost, but even if they did, they only did until the first Church council, recorded in Acts 15. After that, there was only one message, and Galatians indicates that all the Apostles would have condemned anybody preaching otherwise.
Note that I don't grant that any Apostles taught otherwise, because I don't see it in Acts, and neither in any of the non-Pauline epistles. I see troublemakers who were not Apostles doing it, but not Apostles.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Acts 13
26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
27 For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers, because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have fulfilled them in condemning him.
28 And though they found no cause of death in him, yet desired they Pilate that he should be slain.
29 And when they had fulfilled all that was written of him, they took him down from the tree, and laid him in a sepulchre.
30 But God raised him from the dead:
31 And he was seen many days of them which came up with him from Galilee to Jerusalem, who are his witnesses unto the people.
32 And we declare unto you glad tidings, how that the promise which was made unto the fathers,
33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.
34 And as concerning that he raised him up from the dead, now no more to return to corruption, he said on this wise, I will give you the sure mercies of David.
35 Wherefore he saith also in another psalm, Thou shalt not suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
36 For David, after he had served his own generation by the will of God, fell on sleep, and was laid unto his fathers, and saw corruption:
37 But he, whom God raised again, saw no corruption.
38 Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
39 And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
40 Beware therefore, lest that come upon you, which is spoken of in the prophets;
41 Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish: for I work a work in your days, a work which ye shall in no wise believe, though a man declare it unto you.
42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
43 Now when the congregation was broken up, many of the Jews and religious proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas: who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God.
44 And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.
45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming.
46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles.
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
Romans 2
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Paul's doing, or God's doing?
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Paul's doing, or God's doing?
Not all were merely inciting trouble over this issue.
You have oversimplified the thing.
Meaning; you have isolated some passages from their collective whole as a witness, and then taken those isolated passages TOO literal.
I know; what am I going on about?
When we look for, and then look at things, from...overall, governing, or operating principles, we begin to find we don't need to ask this, that, the other, so often.
Lol, you have proved one of my other points
That Paul preached to Israel both that Jesus was the Christ and the forgiveness of sins (just as Acts 17 and 1 Thessalonians shows, when compared with one another).
Don't you assert that he only preached to them what you refer to as the gospel of God? If I am off on this; my apology.
And thanks for the challenge
The latter.
Thing is, STP, we are each clearly looking at these issues from within what is obviously a different organizing principle.
This is why we each appear "right" to ourselves but not to one another.
Whenever we fellow mads end up at an understanding that is different from other fellow mads, in one area, or another, this is why.
It is this what we ought to strive to identify together - what this organizing principle might be that we are each going by though we both assert "the passages mean what they say."
This is why we each appear "right" to ourselves but not to one another.
Whenever we fellow mads end up at an understanding that is different from other fellow mads, in one area, or another, this is why.
It is this what we ought to strive to identify together - what this organizing principle might be that we are each going by though we both assert "the passages mean what they say."
ClimateSanity
New member
Lol, you have proved one of my other points
That Paul preached to Israel both that Jesus was the Christ and the forgiveness of sins (just as Acts 17 and 1 Thessalonians shows, when compared with one another).
Don't you assert that he only preached to them what you refer to as the gospel of God? If I am off on this; my apology.
And thanks for the challenge
It's the same forgiveness of sins that Jesus and Peter taught. It was devoid of the DBR as the basis for said forgiveness. The Gospel of God is devoid of the basis for forgiveness.
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