Were Early Church Fathers Young Earth Creationists?

[Apple7]

Scripture tells us death entered the world after first Adam sinned.

Quote the scripture, and defend it.

Good luck..

 

[6days]

Quote the scripture, and defend it

Hey Apple... I will gladly show you from scripture how death entered our world after first Adam sinned. After all... That is the very foundation of the Gospel.

But first, regarding the original topic, will you admit the early church fathers believed in a young earth? Will you admit that Hugh Ross has mislead you?

 

[JudgeRightly]

Job 38.25 - 41

Who has cut a channel for the flood; or a way for the thunderclaps, to make it rain on the earth where no man is, a wilderness and no man in it;

So, when God makes it rain in a desert, it's always when there are no men on the earth at all?

Because that's not what the verse is saying.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? :think:

If God makes it rain on earth in a place where no man is, does that mean that there are no men at all?

to satisfy the waste and desolation, and to cause the source of grass to sprout? Is there a father for the rain? Or who has given birth to the drops of dew? From whose womb comes forth the ice; and the frost of the heavens, who fathered it; the waters hidden like stone, and the face of the deep is captured? Can you bind the bands of the Pleiades, or loosen the cords of Orion? Can you bring out the constellations in their season; or can you guide the Bear with its sons? Do you know the limits of the heavens; can you establish their rulership on the earth? Can you lift your voice to the clouds, so that floods of water may cover you? Can you send lightnings, that they may go and say to you, Here we are? Who has put wisdom in the inward parts; or who has given understanding to the mind? Who can by wisdom number the clouds or who can lay down the jars of the heavens, when the dust is melted into hardness, and the clods cling fast together? Will you hunt the prey for the lion, or fill the appetite of the young lions, when they crouch in dens, and sit in the cover of their hiding place? Who provides food for the raven, when its young ones cry to God and wander about without food?

Ok, and?

What is it in that passage that specifies that God is talking to Job about the time before He created man?

Here we have Yahweh giving Job a clinic on creation.

Observe that God provides Job with a list of the creation BEFORE mankind!

You're begging the question.

How is that passage talking of a time before man?

Because it could just as easily be talking about a period after man was created, and simply in an area on earth where there are no men to see it happen.

Lions hunting for prey? Lions are carnivores. This means that they stalked and killed their food, as plainly stated in the text.

Ravens are omnivores – which means that they also ate meat – which means animal death.

Which also applies to animals after the fall of man, no?

So…as you can see, all these things transpired BEFORE the first humans.

Animal death existed BEFORE Adam sinned.

Period.

More question begging.

You're assuming that which you need to prove.

 

[Stripe]

Remember, this thread was about church fathers. Apple doesn't seem to want to discuss them.

 

[Apple7]

Hey Apple... I will gladly show you from scripture how death entered our world after first Adam sinned. After all... That is the very foundation of the Gospel.

This should be interesting to watch...

But first, regarding the original topic, will you admit the early church fathers believed in a young earth? Will you admit that Hugh Ross has mislead you?

The evidence shows otherwise.

Now...Go plagiarize your 'rebuttal' and defense...

 

[Apple7]

So, when God makes it rain in a desert, it's always when there are no men on the earth at all?

Because that's not what the verse is saying.

If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound? :think:

If God makes it rain on earth in a place where no man is, does that mean that there are no men at all?

Place the verse in its original context, and then make the same claims...

 

[JudgeRightly]

Place the verse in its original context, and then make the same claims...

There's more to my post than that, Apple.

Here is the full chapter.

“Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?“Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb;When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;When I said, ‘This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!’“Have you commanded the morning since your days began, And caused the dawn to know its place,That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment.From the wicked their light is withheld, And the upraised arm is broken.“Have you entered the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in search of the depths?Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this.“Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place,That you may take it to its territory, That you may know the paths to its home?Do you know it, because you were born then, Or because the number of your days is great?“Have you entered the treasury of snow, Or have you seen the treasury of hail,Which I have reserved for the time of trouble, For the day of battle and war?By what way is light diffused, Or the east wind scattered over the earth?“Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water, Or a path for the thunderbolt,To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one, A wilderness in which there is no man;To satisfy the desolate waste, And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?Has the rain a father? Or who has begotten the drops of dew?From whose womb comes the ice? And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?The waters harden like stone, And the surface of the deep is frozen.“Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?Can you bring out Mazzaroth in its season? Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?“Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, That an abundance of water may cover you?Can you send out lightnings, that they may go, And say to you, ‘Here we are!’?Who has put wisdom in the mind? Or who has given understanding to the heart?Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,When the dust hardens in clumps, And the clods cling together?“Can you hunt the prey for the lion, Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,When they crouch in their dens, Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?Who provides food for the raven, When its young ones cry to God, And wander about for lack of food? - Job 38:2-41 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job38:2-41&version=NKJV

Please explain how your position is correct, which is that the entire passage is speaking of before the creation of man. Because I'm not seeing it.

I see certain verses that specifically refer to creation, and other verses that speak of a time after Job's birth.

Oh, and don't forget, this ENTIRE CHAPTER is written as poetry....

 

[Stripe]

The evidence shows otherwise.

But you won't discuss it. :think:

 

[Apple7]

There's more to my post than that, Apple.

Here is the full chapter.

“Who is this who darkens counsel By words without knowledge?Now prepare yourself like a man; I will question you, and you shall answer Me.“Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell Me, if you have understanding.Who determined its measurements? Surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it?To what were its foundations fastened? Or who laid its cornerstone,When the morning stars sang together, And all the sons of God shouted for joy?“Or who shut in the sea with doors, When it burst forth and issued from the womb;When I made the clouds its garment, And thick darkness its swaddling band;When I fixed My limit for it, And set bars and doors;When I said, ‘This far you may come, but no farther, And here your proud waves must stop!’“Have you commanded the morning since your days began, And caused the dawn to know its place,That it might take hold of the ends of the earth, And the wicked be shaken out of it?It takes on form like clay under a seal, And stands out like a garment.From the wicked their light is withheld, And the upraised arm is broken.“Have you entered the springs of the sea? Or have you walked in search of the depths?Have the gates of death been revealed to you? Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth? Tell Me, if you know all this.“Where is the way to the dwelling of light? And darkness, where is its place,That you may take it to its territory, That you may know the paths to its home?Do you know it, because you were born then, Or because the number of your days is great?“Have you entered the treasury of snow, Or have you seen the treasury of hail,Which I have reserved for the time of trouble, For the day of battle and war?By what way is light diffused, Or the east wind scattered over the earth?“Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water, Or a path for the thunderbolt,To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one, A wilderness in which there is no man;To satisfy the desolate waste, And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?Has the rain a father? Or who has begotten the drops of dew?From whose womb comes the ice? And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?The waters harden like stone, And the surface of the deep is frozen.“Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, Or loose the belt of Orion?Can you bring out Mazzaroth in its season? Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?Do you know the ordinances of the heavens? Can you set their dominion over the earth?“Can you lift up your voice to the clouds, That an abundance of water may cover you?Can you send out lightnings, that they may go, And say to you, ‘Here we are!’?Who has put wisdom in the mind? Or who has given understanding to the heart?Who can number the clouds by wisdom? Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,When the dust hardens in clumps, And the clods cling together?“Can you hunt the prey for the lion, Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,When they crouch in their dens, Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?Who provides food for the raven, When its young ones cry to God, And wander about for lack of food? - Job 38:2-41 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job38:2-41&version=NKJV

Please explain how your position is correct, which is that the entire passage is speaking of before the creation of man. Because I'm not seeing it.

It was clearly highlighted for you, how could you miss it?

I see certain verses that specifically refer to creation, and other verses that speak of a time after Job's birth.

Show us.

Oh, and don't forget, this ENTIRE CHAPTER is written as poetry....

And...?

 

[6days]

Hey Apple... I will gladly show you from scripture how death entered our world after first Adam sinned. After all... That is the very foundation of the Gospel.

This should be interesting to watch...

'Interesting' is hardly the word for it. It is mind-boggling amazing to know who it was that went to Calvary, and why.

But first, regarding the original topic, will you admit the early church fathers believed in a young earth? Will you admit that Hugh Ross has mislead you?

The evidence shows otherwise.

Actually, the evidence shows Hugh Ross is a liar, and you are defending him. You have seen evidence contradicting your own statements, but choose to believe Hugh Ross and his falsehoods.

Now...Go plagiarize your 'rebuttal' and defense...

This is very simple Apple.....report what you think is plagiarized.

Regarding 'rebuttal and defense'..... The case has been made that the early church fathers almost universally believe in a young Earth. (Which is contrary to the claims of Hugh Ross). Most of the church fathers, and many of those you named, specifically stated that from scripturewe know that the creation event was less than 10,000 years ago. Apple.... We know why you have not been able to rebut and defend your claims.

 

[Apple7]

Actually, the evidence shows Hugh Ross is a liar, and you are defending him. You have seen evidence contradicting your own statements, but choose to believe Hugh Ross and his falsehoods.
This is very simple Apple.....report what you think is plagiarized.

Regarding 'rebuttal and defense'..... The case has been made that the early church fathers almost universally believe in a young Earth. (Which is contrary to the claims of Hugh Ross). Most of the church fathers, and many of those you named, specifically stated that from scripturewe know that the creation event was less than 10,000 years ago. Apple.... We know why you have not been able to rebut and defend your claims.

You've already been thoroughly busted for plagiarizing your posts from catholic internet websites, and promoting them as your own.

These same plagiarized websites of yours don't even show their references, and they most certainly don't call Dr. Ross a 'liar'.

What credibility do you still have left?

 

[6days]

You've already been thoroughly busted for plagiarizing your posts from catholic internet websites, and promoting them as your own.

Do the right thing Apple... Report plagiarism!! I URGE YOU!!!

These same plagiarized websites of yours don't even show their references, and they most certainly don't call Dr. Ross a 'liar'.

I called him a liar, because he deliberately deceives people. You yourself have been deceived by him. To Ross's credit, he sometimes has quietly removed content that was proven false. You have been shown what you say is false,... and you continue to promote a lie

For example...
APPLE7 " Christian fathers include Justin Martyr, Irenaeus, Hippolytus (through writings of Ambrose), Clement, Origen, Lactantius, Victorinus, Methodius, Augustine, Eusebius, Basil, and Ambrose. Among this group, all but one believed that the creation days were longer than 24 hours."
REPLY

Many of the early church fathers believed God had created almost instantaneously... exact opposite of what you are saying... and they certainly believed creation had happened less than 10,000 years ago.
For example Augustine said "Unbelievers are also deceived by false documents which ascribe to history many thousand years, although we can calculate from Sacred Scripture that not 6,000 years have passed since the creation of man."

 

[Stripe]

:mock: Darwinists.

 

[borntosurf]

the total message accumulated of all the statements of " so called " Church Fathers is very contradictory and seems to be a progression or evolution of faith