ECT Was there "reconciliation" with God before Jesus shed His Blood?

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Was there "reconciliation" with God before Jesus shed His Blood?

Please give your definition of the word before answering. The fuller the answer, the better. Thanks.
 
Buzzword

Buzzword

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Reconcile - to repair a relationship between two parties who have been separated via the actions of one party or the other.

The ancient Hebrew rituals of animal sacrifice were supposed to reconcile the family or the tribe or the whole population to God by paying for their sins for the year with the blood and meat of animals.

Given that their perception of God up until the Persian takeover was that of an anthropomorphic, emotional judge who in no way judged impartially and who regularly caused people to sin and/or reject His message or messengers, it's likely that the above barbaric rituals did nothing to actually bring the ancient Hebrews any closer to Him, since the yearly sacrifice was supposed to be a giant apology for their behavior, and the laws in place only punished behavior after the fact.

Neither did anything to change the behavior of individuals or the motivations behind that behavior, so it would seem to follow that neither successfully reconciled the ancient Hebrews to God.

Of course, to be reconciled one must have a relationship to begin with. The ancient Hebrews believed themselves to have a relationship with God via Abraham, at least once Moses got around to writing down all of his people's stories, which had probably gone through several different versions by being passed down orally.

But if they didn't truly have a relationship with God, then their efforts were in fact trying to BUILD a relationship with God as they perceived Him.

And if Christ's picture of God is any indication, then the ancient Hebrews did not perceive Him correctly.
Which would explain their giving Him credit for "hardening Pharaoh's heart," and for commanding Joshua to slaughter women, children, and infants during the conquest of Canaan, and other acts which do not fit the picture of a just and loving God which Christ paints.

Thus Paul's statement in Acts 17:30.
"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."


Of course, this doesn't even address the millions of OTHER people living on this planet between the development of tools or fire or agriculture or the advent of "civilization" (read: writing) in Mesopotamia and the coming of Christ.
Some small tribe in the Americas may have had a perfect experience of God and the wisdom to perceive Him as Christ later revealed Him to be, but because they didn't have any way of recording it that could survive them, we'll never know.
 
heir

heir

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Cross Reference said:
Was there "reconciliation" with God before Jesus shed His Blood?

Please give your definition of the word before answering. The fuller the answer, the better. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Reconciliation carries the idea of someone being enemies before can now be friendly and that's exactly what God accomplished! God fixed it so He can be nice to us!



2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
Cross Reference said:
Was there "reconciliation" with God before Jesus shed His Blood?

Please give your definition of the word before answering. The fuller the answer, the better. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I will offer a simple definition of reconcile, to bring back together that which was separated, Webster's has this, which is better, to restore to friendship or favor after estrangement; adjust; harmonize.

That Abraham was called a friend to God indicates that people could achieve a harmonious relationship with God.

The best they could achieve is sonship by adoption however

Because of the works of Christ we can receive sonship by seed, I Peter 1:23

Thus our reconciliation from a legal and spiritual standing is complete, Romans 5:1, but from our mental state of mind, we need to think in those terms. We have peace with God immediately upon receiving salvation, but again, we must think that and believe that to see it in fruition in our lives
 
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heir said:
Reconciliation carries the idea of someone being enemies before can now be friendly and that's exactly what God accomplished! God fixed it so He can be nice to us!



2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Click to expand...

Are you sure? What made us an "enemy" of God since most folk don't see themselves as such? Most, if asked, would probably say they believe in Him and believe themselves going to heaven when they die.
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Cross Reference said:
Are you sure? What made us an "enemy" of God since most folk don't see themselves as such? Most, if asked, would probably say they believe in Him and believe themselves going to heaven when they die.
Click to expand...
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
...

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

...

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
 
oatmeal

oatmeal

Well-known member
oatmeal said:
I will offer a simple definition of reconcile, to bring back together that which was separated, Webster's has this, which is better, to restore to friendship or favor after estrangement; adjust; harmonize.

That Abraham was called a friend to God indicates that people could achieve a harmonious relationship with God.

The best they could achieve is sonship by adoption however

Because of the works of Christ we can receive sonship by seed, I Peter 1:23

Thus our reconciliation from a legal and spiritual standing is complete, Romans 5:1, but from our mental state of mind, we need to think in those terms. We have peace with God immediately upon receiving salvation, but again, we must think that and believe that to see it in fruition in our lives
Click to expand...

Reconciliation was always available for all throughout history to some degree, but not as complete, nor was it permanent before the works of God in Christ as after.

King Saul was chosen by God to be Israel's first king, but Saul departed from God by his repeated disobedience without repentance

David erred plenty, but once he recognized it he straightened himself out again. He wanted to serve God, but erred in the process at times.
 
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Buzzword said:
Reconcile - to repair a relationship between two parties who have been separated via the actions of one party or the other.
Click to expand...
But does that definition carry with it the reconciliation God required of man for intimacy with Him but simply to simply find favor with Him through the keeping of His law?

The ancient Hebrew rituals of animal sacrifice were supposed to reconcile the family or the tribe or the whole population to God by paying for their sins for the year with the blood and meat of animals. . . ;

. . . . Neither did anything to change the behavior of individuals or the motivations behind that behavior, so it would seem to follow that neither successfully reconciled the ancient Hebrews to God.
Click to expand...
And they knew it because God had revealed it to them, i.e., keeping His favor [personal righteousness] could only be the extent of it all.

Of course, to be reconciled one must have a relationship to begin with. The ancient Hebrews believed themselves to have a relationship with God via Abraham, at least once Moses got around to writing down all of his people's stories, which had probably gone through several different versions by being passed down orally.
Click to expand...

Given the requirement given the scribes, I don't believe that.

But if they didn't truly have a relationship with God, then their efforts were in fact trying to BUILD a relationship with God as they perceived Him.
Click to expand...

If they were Hebrews, that would never have been a choice.

And if Christ's picture of God is any indication, then the ancient Hebrews did not perceive Him correctly.
Click to expand...

Ah, but they were privy to the promise __ and Moses.

Which would explain their giving Him credit for "hardening Pharaoh's heart," and for commanding Joshua to slaughter women, children, and infants during the conquest of Canaan, and other acts which do not fit the picture of a just and loving God which Christ paints.
Click to expand...

Sorry, but I need help with that.

Thus Paul's statement in Acts 17:30.
"In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent."
Click to expand...

What did He "wink at"?

Of course, this doesn't even address the millions of OTHER people living on this planet between the development of tools or fire or agriculture or the advent of "civilization" (read: writing) in Mesopotamia and the coming of Christ.
Some small tribe in the Americas may have had a perfect experience of God and the wisdom to perceive Him as Christ later revealed Him to be, but because they didn't have any way of recording it that could survive them, we'll never know.
Click to expand...

But we do have recordings.

That is supposed to be what missionaries are to do, i.e., explain God in whom they already believe in instead of trying to get them saved to their own religious constructs..
Click to expand...
 
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heir said:
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
...

Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

...

Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
Click to expand...

Ah, It was Adam's transgression that "alienated us". That is more like it. Just to be clear, what was that all about that you might explain it that would explain why Paul would use the word "enemy" as in enemy of God? Could it be that Paul used "enemy" to explain "lost friendship"?

For if, by having our friendship broken, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
...
 
heir

heir

TOL Subscriber
Cross Reference said:
Ah, It was Adam's transgression that "alienated us". That is more like it. Just to be clear, what was that all about that you might explain it that would explain why Paul would use the word "enemy" as in enemy of God? Could it be that Paul used "enemy" to explain "lost friendship"?

For if, by having our friendship broken, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
...
Click to expand...
The scripture bears out that we were these:

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


We weren't friends of God or those who blessed the seed of Abraham. We are of those enemies that cursed God and Israel (Genesis 12:3 KJV).

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:


BUT NOW!

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

It is only through the apostle Paul that we see that the man Christ Jesus gave Himself a ransom for all (including the likes of us), to be testified in due time (1 Timothy 2:4-6 KJV)!
 
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heir said:
The scripture bears out that we were these:

Romans 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

Romans 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

Romans 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Romans 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.


We weren't friends of God or those who blessed the seed of Abraham. We are of those enemies that cursed God and Israel (Genesis 12:3 KJV).

Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:



BUT NOW!

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
Click to expand...

All irrelevant.
 
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