Nang
TOL Subscriber
I agree that Adam was created a willful being, made in the image of God, but he made a choice that went contrary to the commands and will of God.
Man cannot live apart from or in opposition to God's will.
Was the fall necessary ?
- Thread starter beloved57
- Start date
I agree that Adam was created a willful being, made in the image of God, but he made a choice that went contrary to the commands and will of God.
Man cannot live apart from or in opposition to God's will.
[MENTION=19314]Cntrysner[/MENTION] & [MENTION=7292]Nang[/MENTION],
You two need to define terms. And I mean, you need to define terms very precisely because you are talking past one another.
Cntrysner, Nang's post 221 does not mean what the words would seem to make it mean if any normal English speaking human being stopped by and read it. She DOES NOT believe that Adam could have done otherwise. And she thinks that if any choice has consequences then it isn't free. She, just like every other Calvinist you will EVER encounter has alternative definitions for a large percentage of the Christian vernacular. You will get no where until you have her give you the definition of a whole list of concepts, including Sovereignty, Free will, God's will, Choice, etc.
Clete
You two need to define terms. And I mean, you need to define terms very precisely because you are talking past one another.
Cntrysner, Nang's post 221 does not mean what the words would seem to make it mean if any normal English speaking human being stopped by and read it. She DOES NOT believe that Adam could have done otherwise. And she thinks that if any choice has consequences then it isn't free. She, just like every other Calvinist you will EVER encounter has alternative definitions for a large percentage of the Christian vernacular. You will get no where until you have her give you the definition of a whole list of concepts, including Sovereignty, Free will, God's will, Choice, etc.
Clete
He can't live? You mean that he cannot act in opposition to God's will, right?
“The devil, and the whole train of the ungodly, are in all directions, held in by the hand of God as with a bridle, so that they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived, nor how muchsoever they may have planned, move a single finger to perpetrate, unless in so far as he permits, nay unless in so far as he commands, that they are not only bound by his fetters but are even forced to do him service” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 17, Paragraph 11)
“We hold that God is the disposer and ruler of all things, –that from the remotest eternity, according to his own wisdom, He decreed what he was to do, and now by his power executes what he decreed. Hence we maintain, that by His providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined.” (John Calvin, Institutes of Christian Religion, Book 1, Chapter 16, Paragraph 8)
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
How can that be true since the Scriptures reveal that the Lord Jesus was made like His brethren "in all things"?:
"Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people" (Heb.2:17).
You said:
1)"Adam willfully made the choice"
2)"This action of Adam did not demonstrate the exercise of a "free" will"
Seriously, how does this even make sense?
beloved57
Well-known member
The Fall was necessary because God purposed it in His infinite wisdom that it should be, as His Understanding is infinite, so likewise His wisdom Ps 147:5
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
He created the world by wisdom and therefore Adam and the fall he would he bring about.Jer 51:15
He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
Ps 104:24
O Lord, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
Prov 3:19
The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
And God doesn't find wisdom outside of Himself, that would mean someone or something outside of God taught Him Wisdom. So the fall was a contrivance of the unsearchable wisdom of God !567
Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
He created the world by wisdom and therefore Adam and the fall he would he bring about.Jer 51:15
He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heaven by his understanding.
Ps 104:24
O Lord, how manifold are thy works! in wisdom hast thou made them all: the earth is full of thy riches.
Prov 3:19
The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
And God doesn't find wisdom outside of Himself, that would mean someone or something outside of God taught Him Wisdom. So the fall was a contrivance of the unsearchable wisdom of God !567
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Adam was given the choice to eat of the trees provided by God. Adam could have chosen to obey God.
But Adam was never "free" to disobey God. Bringing death upon oneself or others is not a right or a freedom . . it is criminal sin.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I mean both. Life is only found through faith and trust in Jesus Christ which manifests in obedience to His commands.
Right Divider
Body part
So you are observing all the law of Moses?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
I live in the US and have the right of "free" speech. However, the law says I cannot shout "fire" in a crowded auditorium. I am not "free" to do.
Godly choices as well as ungodly choices exist within legal parameters.
Apart from following God's commands we experience nothing but LAWLESSNESS.
It is the word "free" that messes up your reasoning and prohibits your understanding biblical witness. The word "free" is not biblically taught in regard to willful choices.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
The Ten Commandments remain my moral guide as a believer in Jesus Christ. As do Christ's commands given in I John 3:22-23.
The practice of abandoning God's Formal Law is the heresy called "Antinomianism" which proves to be LAWLESSNESS.
LAWLESSNESS in the bible is synonymous with "sin" because it is the fruit of unbelief.
Right Divider
Body part
So you do absolutely no work on Saturday?
An attempted false accusation? From someone that follows ALL of the commandments of God?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
Observance of natural laws are providential to all creatures, but they have never saved a single sinner . .
And it is the Jewish civil and dietary laws that were never salvific; thus, are no longer in effect for those who rest in the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone.
Even the Formal Law is to no longer be considered as a means to earning salvation. The commands of Jesus Christ are to believe and rest in His works in order to fulfill all the Formal Law.
But to throw out observance of the Ten Commandments is pure LAWLESSESS. Such is the practice of Antinomian heretics.
Right Divider
Body part
:yawn:
How many straw-men are you going to create?
They were "never salvific" and YET they are "NO LONGER in effect for those who rest in the righteousness of Jesus Christ alone."
You are illogical and irrational.
Again you say NO LONGER.... was it at one time "considered as a means to earning salvation"?
More false accusations... and here I thought that you were a law abiding Christian (per your OWN claim).
The only way I see to obtain Godly type Love is through what Jesus taught us: Luke 7 he who is forgiven much Loves much, so if I accept forgiveness of an unbelievable huge debt caused by sin, I will automatically obtain an unbelievable huge Love (Godly type Love).
To obtain the Charitable gift of Love I will first have to sin, which is not hard since all mature people sin.
To obtain the Charitable gift of Love I will first have to sin, which is not hard since all mature people sin.
Right Divider
Body part
Rom 6:1-2 KJV What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? (2) God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Nang
TOL Subscriber
How many Christians do you know that were saved by studying the stars in heaven?
Many Jews thought so . . .
Witnessing to TRUTH is not accusatory.
Right Divider
Body part
None, why do ask so many silly questions?
So what?
You cannot carry on a rational conversation.
Nang
TOL Subscriber
How amusing . . .
Right Divider
Body part
Thanks for confirming your inability to communicate rationally.