Cross Reference
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"if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" 1 Peter 4:18 (KJV)
ECT Unto the Jew and Gentile does God send this warning:
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nikolai_42
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If that "scarcely" means what I think you are implying, then let's all join the Roman Catholic church....or the Mormons....where Christ's once for all sacrifice does not suffice (on its own). The force of the language - indeed, the force of the Word delivered to the soul of the reader - does not exempt him or her from work. But - to him that worketh not but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness (Romans 4:5).
In fact, I venture to say that the fear that this thought instills in the one trusting in his own works only serves to convince him he isn't doing enough (or not doing enough well). Rather, the one trusting in Christ because he doesn't trust himself (c.f. Luke 18:9 and Jeremiah 17:5-9) will only be more driven to the "end of himself" (read moral frontier of need) to trust in Christ (again, per Romans 4:5)
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Jesus said this declared this: "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 5:32 (KJV)
Question: How many times does that verse have to be posted up before you people catch on; get with the program??
nikolai_42
Well-known member
You seem to want to read in the assumption that there are (were) righteous people (apart from Christ) who don't need to be called to repentance. That's the problem from where I sit.
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Well sit somewhere else where you might view a little better the words of Jesus to let them say what they say.
nikolai_42
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"You're wrong, you need to think about it this way" is a lot less influential than (scriptural) reasons why...
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
Returning to the topic at hand, all of the teaching of Jesus exalts the humble, self-unimportant, weak and powerless individual while it tears down and convicts the proud and self-confident. And He never told the poor (in spirit) that He encountered that they needed to be righteous or pull themselves up by their own (spiritual) bootstraps. And if you read John 9 carefully, you see that no one who thinks (or "knows") they are righteous actually is - unless you want to say that there is a sinless man aside from Christ ("You say 'we see', therefore your sin remaineth"
Cross Reference
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"You're wrong, you need to think about it this way" is a lot less influential than (scriptural) reasons why...
For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
(For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds
Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
2 Corinthians 10:3-5
Returning to the topic at hand, all of the teaching of Jesus exalts the humble, self-unimportant, weak and powerless individual while it tears down and convicts the proud and self-confident. And He never told the poor (in spirit) that He encountered that they needed to be righteous or pull themselves up by their own (spiritual) bootstraps. And if you read John 9 carefully, you see that no one who thinks (or "knows") they are righteous actually is - unless you want to say that there is a sinless man aside from Christ ("You say 'we see', therefore your sin remaineth"
Well, thats is why He put it way he did. So you see, I'm not wrong as you want to believe.
nikolai_42
Well-known member
Per John 9 (etc...), He's saying that He may only be calling sinners to repentance, but that includes everyone - though only those who think themselves righteous will reject that call. In other words, there are none righteous - no not one.
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Naah, I don't see His words saying anything of the sort as you have it. Too much of a struggle to make it fit. If I was looking for truth, I would rather have it change my thinking simply because to make it fit anything contrary to what can be easily understood in those words would be, dishonest. They easily fit the rest of scripture both in the OT and NT. One born again will easily understand that to be, truth..
nikolai_42
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If the root is holy, so will all the branches be. Christ's work is not patchwork, it is radical renovation from the ground up.
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Spare me your sidetracking 'gobble-dee-goop amateur' philosophizing, OK? Work on Grossic Mosbaric.
iamaberean
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Peter speaking of the Jews. The righteous are the Jews of faith, they will only be scarcely saved because works is not what would save them.
1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? (gospel is about Jesus speaking to his chosen, the Jews)
Rom 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:9 Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
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What then does that say about "their" righteousness, "their" faith, if they are but scarcely saved?
iamaberean
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I feel it would be the difference between Law and Grace. The law only guaranteed one thing, judgment. Living day to day with the possibility of condemnation just around the corner. Grace guarantees that our sins have been covered by Jesus and if we do sin we can get forgiveness just by confessing to Him.
The Lord Jesus Christ(vs. your "Jesus"-show some respect)said this:
Luke 18:22 KJV Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Question: How many times does that verse have to be posted up before you catch on; get with the program?? Sell it all, including your 401(K),403(B), 401(A), IRA, house, pet rock,........................................
See how that works?
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What "law" are you referring to?
Luke 18:22 KJV Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
The Lord is blessing every one who is doing that today, and will do so even more in the near future, as they will be the only ones doing anything of worth when the money is cut off from all except those who take the beasts mark.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
LA
The Lord is blessing every one who is doing that today, and will do so even more in the near future, as they will be the only ones doing anything of worth when the money is cut off from all except those who take the beasts mark.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Rev 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.
LA