Union with Christ before believing in Him !

[PureX]

purex

As I explained, without a Union with Christ when He died for us, then God had no legal basis or ground to charge Him with our sins, so there had to be a Union with Christ before He could legally die for us and we can believe on Him !

What you are talking about, is to me, just religious gibberish and 'hocus-pocus'. As I understand it, Christ is a term that refers to an ideal, and to a promise. For that promise to manifest, I must live by the ideal. So for me, "belief in" the ideal and "acting on" it's promise are the same things.

I have no identification with, or interest in this magical religious stuff about holy sacrifices and divine legal debts being paid by Jesus' murder and all that other stuff that you and others choose to call Christianity. None of that stuff makes any sense to me, and it has no connection to real life that I am aware of. In the real world, we believe, we act on those beliefs, and they prove true or they don't.

The ideal of Christ proves true, when acted upon, and delivers on it's promise. That's as much as I need to know. Call it 'practical Christianity for dummies'.

 

[beloved57]

What you are talking about, is to me, just religious gibberish and 'hocus-pocus'. As I understand it, Christ is a term that refers to an ideal, and to a promise. For that promise to manifest, I must live by the ideal. So for me, "belief in" the ideal and "acting on" it's promise are the same things.

I have no identification with, or interest in this magical religious stuff about holy sacrifices and divine legal debts being paid by Jesus' murder and all that other stuff that you and others choose to call Christianity. None of that stuff makes any sense to me, and it has no connection to real life that I am aware of. In the real world, we believe, we act on those beliefs, and they prove true or they don't.

The ideal of Christ proves true, when acted upon, and delivers on it's promise. That's as much as I need to know. Call it 'practical Christianity for dummies'.

If you or I didn't have a union with Christ when He died for sin, then He didn't die for our sins, He had no legal basis to!

 

[PureX]

If you or I didn't have a union with Christ when He died for sin, then He didn't die for our sins, He had no legal basis to!

I don't care about any of that, because it's just pointless 'religiosity', to me. I'm sorry, but I don't think your beliefs have any substance to them. I think their all ideology and emotionalism, but with little practical applicability. (But then all I see are words on a screen, so I could be mistaken.)

 

[beloved57]

I don't care about any of that, because it's just pointless 'religiosity', to me. I'm sorry, but I don't think your beliefs have any substance to them. I think their all ideology and emotionalism, but with little practical applicability. (But then all I see are words on a screen, so I could be mistaken.)

The feeling is mutual! I don't care about what you talking about!

 

[Shasta]

God's Truth;4478556]Jesus said they are seeking him NOT because they saw signs, but because they ATE THEIR FILL OF THE LOAVES.

Of course what they desired was a free buffet but what they wanted to KNOW was how to do the “works” of God...like Jesus had done (the miracle of the loaves)and Moses before Him (the manna). Now what kind of “works” were these? They were talking about how to perform miraculous works and,yes, ones that would meet their carnal needs.
Jesus turned their attention to a more important "work" the important work that needed to be done INSIDE them.

He said,

"This is the work of God, that you believe(have faith) in Him whom He has sent."

You are reacting so much to the view that faith is an involuntary work of God that you are not acknowledging the role the Spirit plays in getting us to believe. His role is convicting us of sin, bearing witness in us of the truth of the gospel and bearing witness to the person and message of Christ.

The Holy Spirit does not make us believe supernaturally.

I do not believe that the Spirit MAKES people believe.

That scripture is about when God HARDENED the Jews who did NOT have FAITH BEFORE JESUS CAME.

MANY people were coming to Jesus. Individual people were hardened but not the nation as a whole. That had not happened yet.

But where exactly does the Bible say “God HARDENED the Jews who did NOT have FAITH BEFORE JESUS CAME.”

Jesus was reaching out to and saving a lot of hardened sinners who had not had faith before He came. Secularized Jews like Matthew and Zachieus who were thieves and cheats could not be said to have faith before Jesus came; neither could many other non-practicing Jews. Among orthodox Jews some like Nicodemus believed while others did not. Every time Jesus called on a group of people to “believe” (i.e.,have faith”) in Him He was assuming that many or even most of those he was reaching out to did not yet believe in Him.

The Spirit convicts the world of sin does not mean the Holy Spirit supernaturally makes us have faith.

Again I do not believe the Holy Spirit MAKES anyone have faith. However inasmuch as He has a hand in leading us to faith you cannot say that the process is purely natural.

Be more careful what you say the scripture is saying. The scripture does not say that at all.

Okay I will make my point with these scriptures:

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Galatians 5:16)

This does not say “if we try very hard NOT to fulfill the lusts of the flesh then we will walk in the Spirit.” Walking by the Spirit is the means whereby we are enabled not to sin.

In order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:4)

We can only exhibit God’s righteous character by walking by the Spirit. We do not have the power to do it apart from dependence on Him.

For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. (Romans 8:13)

Gaining victory over the flesh requires our putting it to death voluntarily but we can only accomplish this through the Spirit.

Since I speak of the power of the scriptures, why then do you think you have proven me wrong?

Because you seem to be saying the scriptures can save without the Spirit just like you seem to say that we are able to obey perfectly without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

You repeat what false teachers say. You just contradicted yourself. Read what you wrote right here, and then what you just wrote before about the written word.
Paul is NOT saying that his letters are devoid of the Spirit and KILLS.
Paul is speaking about the old law that said to put people to death for their sins.

To Paul the "scriptures" were not his own letters but the Old Testament writings. In the hands of men who were without the Holy Spirit those words did not give life. When Jesus read them they had power. It is the Holy Spirit that makes the word living.

What? That is not true. They put people to death because they were false teachers without understanding.

You think correct doctrine will prevents a person from falling into error or sin? I assure you does not. I have seen many fall, ministers included. You are extremely naive if you think it does not happen.

That scripture is about OUR NOT HAVING TO CLEAN OURSELVES, just to be able to go to the temple, where God’s Spirit was, and worship Him.

Faith in Jesus’ blood now cleans us.

This verse has nothing to do with the Temple which was not an important issue in this Church which consisted of Gentiles and a much smaller number of Hellenistic Jews (who did not put much stock in the temple anyway). What it does say is that “faith is the gift of God” You will have to come to terms with what that phrase means.

You sound too worldly, trying to give me some man’s name to say I follow.

So when someone says a word you do not know it means they are worldly? I was just giving you a few words that would help you understand the views of others around here, including me. If you would rather figure them out through conflicts, misunderstandings, statements and restatements then go ahead. The shorter way to learning is reading.

Anyone can come to God, if they can seek Him, they are to seek Him, and they will find Him.

I agree

 

[Nanja]

The Gospel is hid to them but they can turn to Christ and be saved.

2 Corinthians 3:16 but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.…

Did you read that?

Whenever A PERSON TURNS TO THE LORD, the veil is taken away.

There is no scripture that says what you claim, and that is that Jesus saves us first and then we believe.

WE have to TURN TO JESUS.

Does that scripture say, "but whenever Jesus turns someone to him"?

No, it does not say that. It says that NOWHERE.

The natural man, of himself, does not possess the ability to turn himself to God Rom. 8:7-8.

Lam 5:21
Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

God does that by the death of His Son for all those He died for;
those who had a Union in Christ before the world began Eph. 1:4-11; 2 Tim. 1:9;
and the result is that "we shall be turned".

~~~~~

 

[Shasta]

What does this mean being united before belief?

Are you saying God has only a select chosen people who be chosen to be saved and the rest perish?

If that is what you are saying then no. There is no unity before belief as that makes God not a nice God.

That is exactly what he is saying. He sees the chosen few as having been pre-selected before the foundation of the world. That is classic Calvinism.

However, he exceeds his teacher in the audacity of his error by making the elect pre-existant souls.

He also believes that the elect are pre-justified and that God never imputes sin to them not even those they commit before they become Christians. Thus they are:

saved before being saved,

redeemed while they are still not redeemed,

children of mercy while they are still children of wrath,

righteous while they are still dead in sin,

reconciled (put in right relationship) to God while they are still His enemies.

 

[PureX]

That is exactly what he is saying. He sees the chosen few as having been pre-selected before the foundation of the world. That is classic Calvinism.

However, he exceeds his exceeds his teacher in the audacity of his error by making the elect pre-existant souls.

He also believes that the elect are pre-justified and that God never imputes sin to them not even those they commit before they become Christians. Thus they are:

saved before being saved,

redeemed while they are still not redeemed,

children of mercy while they are still children of wrath,

righteous while they are still dead in sin,

reconciled (put in right relationship) to God while they are still His enemies.

Wow! Good post! :up:

 

[meshak]

Call it 'practical Christianity for dummies'.

All Jesus' teachings are practical. But it is not practiced because it is not easy to follow them.

But we will be judged according to what we have done. Without following Jesus' teachings we will not inherit God's kingdom. This is Jesus' word.

So His followers ought to strive to follow all His teachings. If we don't, we will be judged harshly worse than non-believers.

 

[beloved57]

The natural man, of himself, does not possess the ability to turn himself to God Rom. 8:7-8.

Lam 5:21
Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

God does that by the death of His Son for all those He died for;
those who had a Union in Christ before the world began Eph. 1:4-11; 2 Tim. 1:9;
and the result is that "we shall be turned".

~~~~~

And also you must believe to turn the the Lord Acts 11:21, but those lost can't believe the Gospel because it is hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4

 

[Shasta]

The natural man, of himself, does not possess the ability to turn himself to God Rom. 8:7-8.

Lam 5:21
Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

God does that by the death of His Son for all those He died for;
those who had a Union in Christ before the world began Eph. 1:4-11; 2 Tim. 1:9;
and the result is that "we shall be turned".

~~~~~

You are not taking into account the fact that the Spirit has come into the world to lead people to Jesus, to show them who He is, to persuade them to surrender their lives to Him and believe the gospel. So people blinded by carnality have not been left to their own devices.

 

[Nanja]

And also you must believe to turn the the Lord Acts 11:21, but those lost can't believe the Gospel because it is hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4

Yes, and only God's Chosen Sons will believe the Gospel according to His Will and Purpose in Christ from everlasting.

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath
from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
v.13 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

You are not taking into account the fact that the Spirit has come into the world to lead people to Jesus, to show them who He is, to persuade them to surrender their lives to Him and believe the gospel. So people blinded by carnality have not been left to their own devices.

Those in the flesh can't please God Rom 8:8 !

 

[beloved57]

Yes, and only God's Chosen Sons will believe the Gospel according to His Will and Purpose in Christ from everlasting.

2 Thes. 2:13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath
from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
v.13 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

~~~~~

Exactly, the Spirit leads the Chosen of God unto belief of the Truth 2Thess 2:13 !

 

[Nanja]

Exactly, the Spirit leads the Chosen of God unto belief of the Truth 2Thess 2:13 !

Amen, and the same are the all men God wills to become Saved 1 Tim. 2:4, they
will be led by the Spirit to the knowledge of the Truth John 16:13; John 17:17-19.

~~~~~

 

[beloved57]

Amen, and the same are the all men God wills to become Saved 1 Tim. 2:4, they
will be led by the Spirit to the knowledge of the Truth John 16:13; John 17:17-19.

~~~~~

Exactly!

 

[beloved57]

must

If someone can be in eternal union with Christ before believing the Gospel, then many "lost" are actually saved.

Thats True, but they are only Lost in the sense that they have yet to be born again, by nature they are enemies Rom 5:10 but they are still saved from the penalty of their sins !

See, You have to had been in Union with Christ in order for Him to be able to legally and Justly die for your sins, no sins could be charged to Him if He was not their legal Head in the Eyes of Gods Law and Justice ! That took a Union !

 

[God's Truth]

The natural man, of himself, does not possess the ability to turn himself to God Rom. 8:7-8.

Read that scripture more carefully, because it is about people who care about only pleasing their flesh. We are not just flesh, we are spirit too. Some people care more about deeper things; not everyone is only interested in pleasing their flesh.

Hebrews 12:9, Zechariah 12:1, and Malachi 2:15.

Lam 5:21
Turn thou us unto thee, O LORD, and we shall be turned; renew our days as of old.

God does that by the death of His Son for all those He died for;
those who had a Union in Christ before the world began Eph. 1:4-11; 2 Tim. 1:9;
and the result is that "we shall be turned".

~~~~~

See, you even admit that God does not turn us in some supernatural way.

Those who care about the deeper things, from the spirit within them, those are the people who are drawn to God by the lovingkindness of Jesus and because of a better HOPE given us than that of the law; we hope in the perfection we receive through Jesus. See Hebrews 7:18, 19.

We are drawn by what we HEAR. God does not give us the Holy Spirit before we are saved.

 

[beloved57]

gt

Read that scripture more carefully, because it is about people who care about only pleasing their flesh. We are not just flesh, we are spirit too. Some people care more about deeper things; not everyone is only interested in pleasing their flesh.

You can read it till you turn blue in the face, the fact will remain, those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:7 and cannot be submitted to Him or obey Him Rom 8:7 !

 

[God's Truth]

Of course what they desired was a free buffet but what they wanted to KNOW was how to do the “works” of God...like Jesus had done (the miracle of the loaves)and Moses before Him (the manna). Now what kind of “works” were these? They were talking about how to perform miraculous works and,yes, ones that would meet their carnal needs.
Jesus turned their attention to a more important "work" the important work that needed to be done INSIDE them.

You keep trying to justify the adding you did earlier. It just is not there. First you said they wanted to do the miracles, but then I showed you that Jesus said they did not care about the miracles but only the food. Now you say they wanted to do the miracles to make more food!
Admit you were wrong.

He said,

"This is the work of God, that you believe(have faith) in Him whom He has sent."

You are reacting so much to the view that faith is an involuntary work of God that you are not acknowledging the role the Spirit plays in getting us to believe. His role is convicting us of sin, bearing witness in us of the truth of the gospel and bearing witness to the person and message of Christ.

What you say about me is nonsense. We have to hear the word. The Holy Spirit does not come into anyone’s heart until it is time to live there, AFTER they believe and obey Jesus.

I do not believe that the Spirit MAKES people believe.

Then check what you are saying. What you are saying is reminiscent of Luther and Calvin.

MANY people were coming to Jesus. Individual people were hardened but not the nation as a whole. That had not happened yet.

You are not careful enough about the truth. Tell me, where did I say a whole nation? It did not happen. God hardened JEWS who did not have faith in HIM BEFORE Jesus came to earth and started his ministry.

But where exactly does the Bible say “God HARDENED the Jews who did NOT have FAITH BEFORE JESUS CAME.”

Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed."

Matthew 13:14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: "'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving.

God bound all to disobedience (except those who already belonged to Him by faith before Jesus came to earth). See Romans 11:32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

Again I do not believe the Holy Spirit MAKES anyone have faith. However inasmuch as He has a hand in leading us to faith you cannot say that the process is purely natural.

Then why in the world are you going against me!

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh (Galatians 5:16)

This does not say “if we try very hard NOT to fulfill the lusts of the flesh then we will walk in the Spirit.” Walking by the Spirit is the means whereby we are enabled not to sin.

You are badly mistaken. The Spirit does not FORCE US TO OBEY. That scripture is about those wanting to obey. Go read about Paul beating his body. Go read about running a race.

Because you seem to be saying the scriptures can save without the Spirit just like you seem to say that we are able to obey perfectly without the assistance of the Holy Spirit.

You do not listen very well. We do have to obey BEFORE WE HAVE THE HOLY SPIRIT. The Holy Spirit is given to those who believe and obey. However, the message is SPIRITUAL, and it is the written Word of God, and anyone can obey it if they want, and that is BEFORE UNDERSTANDING.

To Paul the "scriptures" were not his own letters but the Old Testament writings. In the hands of men who were without the Holy Spirit those words did not give life. When Jesus read them they had power. It is the Holy Spirit that makes the word living.

Paul knew he was writing scripture.
The New Testament teachings were by letter and books right from the beginning. In 1 Timothy 5:18 Paul joins a New Testament scripture (Luke 10:7) to an Old Testament scripture (Deuteronomy 25:4) and calls them both scripture. In addition, we can see in 2 Peter 3:15-16 Peter recognizes what Paul writes as scripture.

You think correct doctrine will prevents a person from falling into error or sin? I assure you does not. I have seen many fall, ministers included. You are extremely naive if you think it does not happen.

Of course, correct scripture matters, as does OBEYING THOSE SCRIPTURES.

This verse has nothing to do with the Temple which was not an important issue in this Church which consisted of Gentiles and a much smaller number of Hellenistic Jews (who did not put much stock in the temple anyway). What it does say is that “faith is the gift of God” You will have to come to terms with what that phrase means.

You are badly mistaken. Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God.
You want to be a teacher but you have no understanding.
Faith is from God because that is how HE CLEANS US NOW. No one has to clean themselves anymore by preforming certain works, but we have to have faith that Jesus' blood cleans us. How else do you think we are reconciled to Him and become the TEMPLE?

So when someone says a word you do not know it means they are worldly? I was just giving you a few words that would help you understand the views of others around here, including me. If you would rather figure them out through conflicts, misunderstandings, statements and restatements then go ahead. The shorter way to learning is reading.

Admit what you did. You stopped talking about the scriptures and you started speaking of mere men, men not even mentioned in the Holy Bible. You are acting worldly.