toldailytopic: Who are and what is the significance of the 144,000 people mentioned i

[Nathon Detroit]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for March 11th, 2010 10:11 AM

toldailytopic: Who are and what is the significance of the 144,000 people mentioned in the book of Revelation.

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[andyc]

um...............errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr................next topic.

 

[chickenman]

I'm gonna take a stab at this. I know it's weird speculation, with not a shred of biblical basis, but I'll say that the 144,000 are...

"One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel...
Of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; ...
Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; ...
Etc., etc." Rev. 7:4-8
​

Obviously playing around with that statement, but it's so sad how so many will speculate that these people "represent the church" or stuff like that. The text couldn't be clearer.

Furthermore, these people are seen in Rev. 14:3-5 as "following the Lamb wherever He goes. These were redeemd from among men, being firstfruits to God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no deceit, fo rthey are without fault before the throne of God."

With that (following the Lamb wherever He goes, during those 3.5 years of Trouble), I believe they are the ones spoken of here, In Joel chapter 2...

1 Blow the trumpet in Zion,
And sound an alarm in My holy mountain!
Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble;
For the day of the LORD is coming,
For it is at hand:
2 A day of darkness and gloominess,
A day of clouds and thick darkness,
Like the morning clouds spread over the mountains.
A people come, great and strong,
The like of whom has never been;
Nor will there ever be any such after them,
Even for many successive generations.
3 A fire devours before them,
And behind them a flame burns;
The land is like the Garden of Eden before them,
And behind them a desolate wilderness;
Surely nothing shall escape them.
4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;
And like swift steeds, so they run.
5 With a noise like chariots
Over mountaintops they leap,
Like the noise of a flaming fire that devours the stubble,
Like a strong people set in battle array.
6 Before them the people writhe in pain;
All faces are drained of color.
7 They run like mighty men,
They climb the wall like men of war;
Every one marches in formation,
And they do not break ranks.
8 They do not push one another;
Every one marches in his own column.
Though they lunge between the weapons,
They are not cut down.
9 They run to and fro in the city,
They run on the wall;
They climb into the houses,
They enter at the windows like a thief.
10 The earth quakes before them,
The heavens tremble;
The sun and moon grow dark,
And the stars diminish their brightness.
11 The LORD gives voice before His army,
For His camp is very great;
For strong is the One who executes His word.
For the day of the LORD is great and very terrible;
Who can endure it?

​

I may be dead wrong on this last part. Just a guess.

Randy

 

[Nimrod]

144,000 is a mathematical equation. A squared plus B squared equals C squared. It is significant because we use right triangles all of our lives.

 

[chickenman]

Illuminating.

 

[chatmaggot]

144,000 is a mathematical equation. A squared plus B squared equals C squared. It is significant because we use right triangles all of our lives.

How is the number 144,000 an equation? An equation is an algebraic expression that involves an equal sign. I don't see an equal sign in the number 144,000.

Also, A squared plus B squared equals C squared isn't necessarily true.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I'll take a stab at chickenman...um, I mean at this question.

I believe the 144,000 to be the "man child" caught up to the throne of God at the midpoint of the 70th week, before the "Great Tribulation".

Rev 2
24: But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.
25: But that which ye have already hold fast till I come.
26: And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:
27: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Rev 3
10: Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

Here we see their catching up

Rev 12
1: And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3: And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4: And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5: And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And, then, "he" is in heaven

Rev 14
1: And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2: And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4: These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5: And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.


Significance: first fruits of the Kingdom of Heaven

 

[chickenman]

I'll take a stab at chickenman...

Hands off, buddy! :sibbie:
:chicken:

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

You really ask some tough questions Knight :sigh:

Okay, I'll give it a try, but this is going to take some time...

David Azrieli
Samuel Bronfman
Shari Arison
Morris Kahn
Fritz Hoffman
Ariel Durant
Henri Stein
Frank Tannenbaum
Gustavus Myers
Felix Liebermann
Arthur Levy
Rav Nachman
Asher ben Jehiel
Isaac Nieto
Barnett Abrahams
Solomon Herschell

Do I really have to name all of them?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

You really ask some tough questions Knight :sigh:

Okay, I'll give it a try, but this is going to take some time...

David Azrieli
Samuel Bronfman
Shari Arison
Morris Kahn
Fritz Hoffman
Ariel Durant
Henri Stein
Frank Tannenbaum
Gustavus Myers
Felix Liebermann
Arthur Levy
Rav Nachman
Asher ben Jehiel
Isaac Nieto
Barnett Abrahams
Solomon Herschell

Do I really have to name all of them?

Did Steven Spielberg make the cut?

 

[Oh no... it's Sozo]

Did Steven Spielberg make the cut?

He is currently number 146,073

It doesn't look good.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

I'm gonna take a stab at this. I know it's weird speculation, with not a shred of biblical basis, but I'll say that the 144,000 are...

"One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel...
Of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed; ...
Of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed; ...
Etc., etc." Rev. 7:4-8
​

Obviously playing around with that statement, but it's so sad how so many will speculate that these people "represent the church" or stuff like that. The text couldn't be clearer.

I'm hoping Rabbi Tetelestein will be there to represent the tribe of Ephraim.

 

[chickenman]

You really ask some tough questions Knight :sigh:

Okay, I'll give it a try, but this is going to take some time...

David Azrieli
Samuel Bronfman
Shari Arison
Morris Kahn
Fritz Hoffman
Ariel Durant
Henri Stein
Frank Tannenbaum
Gustavus Myers
Felix Liebermann
Arthur Levy
Rav Nachman
Asher ben Jehiel
Isaac Nieto
Barnett Abrahams
Solomon Herschell

Do I really have to name all of them?

Just a hunch, but if you DO post them all, you might get reported for "Posting posts of extreme length".

Hey, where's Jerry Seinfeld?

 

[Jackson]

How is the number 144,000 an equation? An equation is an algebraic expression that involves an equal sign. I don't see an equal sign in the number 144,000.

Also, A squared plus B squared equals C squared isn't necessarily true.

A squared plus B squared equals C squared is most certainly true, when it comes to right angles any way.

Besides 144,000 is a mathmatical equation. 144,000 / 12,000 = 12

:banana:

 

[kmoney]

You really ask some tough questions Knight :sigh:

Okay, I'll give it a try, but this is going to take some time...

David Azrieli
Samuel Bronfman
Shari Arison
Morris Kahn
Fritz Hoffman
Ariel Durant
Henri Stein
Frank Tannenbaum
Gustavus Myers
Felix Liebermann
Arthur Levy
Rav Nachman
Asher ben Jehiel
Isaac Nieto
Barnett Abrahams
Solomon Herschell

Do I really have to name all of them?

:chuckle:





And for the DT, I have no idea. :idunno: All I will say is that I don't think that number is to be taken literally.

 

[tetelestai]

I'm hoping Rabbi Tetelestein will be there to represent the tribe of Ephraim.

This is good. You are making progress Grasshopper.

Just three months ago, you denied that Ephraim was one of the tribes.

Whoever Ephraim and Manasseh are, they are clearly NOT the TWELVE TRIBES.

 

[M. K. Nawojski]

The 144,000 are the great priest-army of Israel—virgins all. At the midpoint of Daniel's Seventieth Week, as foretold by Joel and other prophets, this angelically-empowered, invincible fighting company will move out to cleanse and claim the land promised to Abraham. They will pursue inexhaustible offensive action against Antichrist and his troops, slaughtering them mercilessly, dealing them a final and utter defeat at the Battle of Armageddon—thus triumphantly laying claim to Israel’s Hope, on behalf of their living and dead Jewish brethren (i.e., the “Israel of God”).

The 144,000 priest-army is chosen (and sealed) out of Twelve Tribes of Israel, as follows (cf. Rev. 7:5-8):

(1) 12,000 warriors each from ten of the original Twelve Tribes; i.e., Juda, Reuben, Gad, Aser, Nepthalim, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zabulon, Benjamin.

(2) 12,000 warriors from the Tribe of Joseph and an additional 12,000 from the Tribe of Manasses, i.e., Joseph’s older son, thus bringing the total count of represented tribes to 12 (by this means also honoring the “double portion” which is Joseph’s birthright).

(3) None chosen from the Tribe of Dan, because there is no seed of that Tribe yet alive on the earth during Israel’s last generation. Nonetheless, the “Danites” who died in faith will—after the Battle of Armageddon—be resurrected with the other faithful dead among Israel, and will enter the Millennium, along with their yet living, victorious Jewish brethren.

MK

 

[14400]

If I may...

The 144000, are indeed of all the tribes of Israel...the FIGURATIVE Israel.

The 144000 are those redeemed during the Final HARVEST.

God is NOT a respecter of persons, and throughout scripture we are constantly reminded of this very PRINCIPLE... a clear example of this is when God Chose DAVID from out of his brothers;

1Samuel 16:6-7
6.) And it came to pass, when they were come, that he looked on Eliab, and said, Surely the LORD's anointed is before him.

7.) But the LORD said unto Samuel, Look not on his countenance, or on the height of his stature; because I have refused him: for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart.


Verse 6 teaches us that man looks on the outward things.

Verse 7 teaches us that God looks upon the HEARTS and Never the outward things.


Also we see this here:


Jeremiah 17:9-10

9.) The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

10.) I the LORD search the heart, I try the reins, even to give every man according to his ways, and according to the fruit of his doings.


VERSE 9 teaches us that ALL HEARTS are desperately wicked and deceitful.

Verse 10 teaches us that God searches the heart and judgment is given according to his ways...

But God is showing us that He KNOWS who is saved, for they have a NEW heart and a New SOUL as seen in;


EZEKIEL 36:26-27

26.) A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27.) And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


Verse 26 teaches that it is ONLY GOD who gives a new Heart and SPIRIT to an individual...

This is SALVATION.

Verse 27 teaches that God PUTS HIS SPIRIT within them, and CAUSES THEM to walk in HIS WAYS.


Therefore we can see by these scriptures that God is not a respecter of persons, He does Not look on their OUTWARD APPEARANCE. Therefore He does not consider RACE, GENDER, or NATIONALITY!

BUT...God searches the Hearts of man for HIS OWN SPIRIT WITHIN THEM.



Once we have understood this Very important PRINCIPLE and Doctrine, then we can understand with out any doubt that the 144000 cannot be VIRGINS, MAN, WOMAN, GREEK, HEBREW, AMERICAN or JEW.

We can understand for SURE that the 144000 has to be a "FIGURE OF" or an "ILLUSTRATION OF" a group of saved individuals.

We can also understand FOR SURE that these 144000 cannot come from any NATIONALITY...including TRIBE.

Just to be sure these things MUST BE FIGURATIVE, we read;


Revelation 7:4-8

4.) And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

5.) Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand.

6.) Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nephthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.

7.) Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand.

8.) Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.


If you had paid CAREFUL attention to the scriptures, Benjamin and Manasses ONLY INHERITED 1/2 EACH from the Blessing of Jacob in Egypt, and they TOGETHER would count as 1 TRIBE...and no where in the scriptures is this ever modified.

ALSO "DAN"...the TRIBE of DAN is not mentioned at all! Dan is a tribe of Israel, and therefore we see in;

VERSE 4..."of """""all"""""" the tribes of the children of Israel." CANNOT BE TRUE if the scripture reads as the LITERAL instead of the figurative.


The Sum of the matter is this:

The 144000 is a FIGURATIVE NUMBER to represent all those saved within the FINAL HARVEST before the FINAL JUDGMENT and the ultimate destruction of the earth with fire.


This is why I hope to be among that figurative number of 144000, for that is all those saved who fall within the FINAL HARVEST of the earth.

My hope is reflected by the name I go by..."14400"... and not "144000", for I hope and await to counted worthy of that extra zero, that God's Spirit may be within me as well.

There is many more proofs that provide a clear understanding as to the Meaning of that number and the TIME the final harvest takes place.


peace

 

[chatmaggot]

A squared plus B squared equals C squared is most certainly true, when it comes to right angles any way.

Besides 144,000 is a mathmatical equation. 144,000 / 12,000 = 12

:banana:

Points to ponder:

(1) A number alone does not constitute a mathematical equation. A mathematical equation is a mathematical expression containing an equal sign.

(2) A squared plus B squared equals C squared, as I stated earlier, is not necessarily true. Why? Because of the following:

(a) A squared plus B squared equals C squared is meaningless unless the variables A, B, and C are defined.​

(b) You stated that it is true "when it comes to right angles" and even still that is not correct. Why?​

(i) If you are given a right triangle and the variables A, B, and C are defined to be sides of the triangle, then it COULD be true.​

(ii) The equation A squared plus B squared equals C squared will be true ONLY if A and B are defined to be the legs of the right triangle and the variable C is defined to be the hypotenuse of the right triangle. Otherwise the expression A squared plus B squared equals C squared is meaningless​

(iii) If the variables A and C are defined to be the legs of the right triangle and B is defined to be the hypotenuse, then the equation would have to be adjusted as follows: A squared plus C squared equals B squared​

On another note, A squared plus B squared equals C squared is meant to represent the Pythagorean Theorem. However, the Pythagorean Theorem states "In a right triangle, the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the legs." It says nothing about the letters A, B, and C. When I teach this I always show the clip from The Wizard of Oz where the Scarecrow receives his brain. Once he receives his brain he says...

"The sum of the square roots of any two sides of an isosceles triangle is equal to the square root of the remaining side. Oh joy! Rapture..."

I then have my students test what the Scarecrow said and they learn that what he says is in fact incorrect. So that brings up the question. If the brain that the Scarecrow got caused him to misstate the Pythagorean Theorem, then how messed up was the courage and the heart that the others received!:shocked:

As another aside...in addition to the clip from the Wizard of Oz, I also show the clip from the Simpsons where Homer finds Henry Kissingers glasses in a toilet. Homer puts them on, and thinking that the glasses make him smart he repeats what the Scarecrow says in the Wizard of Oz. BUT WAIT! There's more! The Simpsons try to fix it by having someone in a stall of the bathroom shout out to Homer "That's a right triangle you idiot!" But even then, they still get it wrong. It's NOT the sum of the square roots etc...it's the sum of the squares etc...

Ok, that was our TOL math lesson for the day. Have a good night.

 

[Jackson]

Points to ponder:

(1) A number alone does not constitute a mathematical equation. A mathematical equation is a mathematical expression containing an equal sign.

(2) A squared plus B squared equals C squared, as I stated earlier, is not necessarily true. Why? Because of the following:

(a) A squared plus B squared equals C squared is meaningless unless the variables A, B, and C are defined.​

(b) You stated that it is true "when it comes to right angles" and even still that is not correct. Why?​

(i) If you are given a right triangle and the variables A, B, and C are defined to be sides of the triangle, then it COULD be true.​

(ii) The equation A squared plus B squared equals C squared will be true ONLY if A and B are defined to be the legs of the right triangle and the variable C is defined to be the hypotenuse of the right triangle. Otherwise the expression A squared plus B squared equals C squared is meaningless​

(iii) If the variables A and C are defined to be the legs of the right triangle and B is defined to be the hypotenuse, then the equation would have to be adjusted as follows: A squared plus C squared equals B squared​

On another note, A squared plus B squared equals C squared is meant to represent the Pythagorean Theorem. However, the Pythagorean Theorem states "In a right triangle, the square of the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the square of the legs." It says nothing about the letters A, B, and C. When I teach this I always show the clip from The Wizard of Oz where the Scarecrow receives his brain. Once he receives his brain he says...



I then have my students test what the Scarecrow said and they learn that what he says is in fact incorrect. So that brings up the question. If the brain that the Scarecrow got caused him to misstate the Pythagorean Theorem, then how messed up was the courage and the heart that the others received!:shocked:

As another aside...in addition to the clip from the Wizard of Oz, I also show the clip from the Simpsons where Homer finds Henry Kissingers glasses in a toilet. Homer puts them on, and thinking that the glasses make him smart he repeats what the Scarecrow says in the Wizard of Oz. BUT WAIT! There's more! The Simpsons try to fix it by having someone in a stall of the bathroom shout out to Homer "That's a right triangle you idiot!" But even then, they still get it wrong. It's NOT the sum of the square roots etc...it's the sum of the squares etc...

Ok, that was our TOL math lesson for the day. Have a good night.

I am humbled...


:think:

Then again me and math never got along so well. But the ABC thing always worked in construction... :idunno: