toldailytopic: Should there be a mandated minimum wage?

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Traditio

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How is legislated charity a builder of dignity? I would argue that the longer unemployment lines due to the artificially shrunken labor market due to minimum wages is in fact detrimental to dignity.

It's not legislated charity. If you have an employee, then you have a direct and immediate duty to provide for the employee's welfare. If you're not up to it, then you have a duty not to hire an employee.

In any case, there are easy ways to keep unemployment low. Just hit business who don't hire lots of employees at high wages with very, very severe penalties. Wal Mart wants to implement lay offs because they don't want to pay higher wages? Tax them double! Triple! Quadruple! Take it all! :cloud9:
 

Traditio

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I've been chewing on this, wondering why it sounded so familiar and then it finally came to me.

Trad, you're making the same argument that radical feminists make regarding consensual sex vs rape. They argue that, because there's a power disparity (economic, physical, political) between men and women, women are inhibited from making free consent to the act of sex, and therefore all sex is rape.

There's a massive difference between the man-woman sexual relationship and the employer-employee work relationship. I don't think that I need to go about explaining why this is so, since I think you already can see why they are different. But I'm certainly not above doing so if you think it necessary.
 

Samstarrett

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Samstarrett: I have a very simple moral question for you. Do you think that human lives (our very well being) should be determined by the arbitrary laws of supply and demand? Is human life itself just another commodity?

That question is not simple at all, but I'll try to answer it. The trouble is that it is a moral question that does not address what an individual should or should not do, but rather how things should be. In an ideal world, of course, everyone's needs would be provided for and nobody would have to pay for anything and little white children and little black children would walk down the street hand in hand and politicians would all be honest blokes who could be trusted with absolute power and...

But we don't live in an ideal world. So, to answer your question, no, of course people's well-being "should" be universally provided for, at least for those who work or are, for a reason that is no fault of their own, unable to work. But the real question here is how this should be accomplished. You claim that the State should use force to guarantee that everyone is paid what you consider a decent wage. The problem arises when you realize that this takes people who would have had horrible jobs and leaves them with no job at all, which is even worse. Moreover, it violates the human right to liberty to tell me I may not work simply because you don't like the amount I'm going to be paid.

Instead, I think we should take seriously the Divine admonition to succor the poor, and do it out of our own resources, not those of others. Do you have the right to take what belongs to someone else if it's for a good cause? I don't think so. Does the State have that right? That's a little iffier, but I still think it should be avoided where possible, particularly where it interferes with the right of consenting adults to enter into voluntary, mutually beneficial economic relations.
 

frostmanj

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In any case, there are easy ways to keep unemployment low. Just hit business who don't hire lots of employees at high wages with very, very severe penalties. Wal Mart wants to implement lay offs because they don't want to pay higher wages? Tax them double! Triple! Quadruple! Take it all! :cloud9:

Wow....I'm not even sure where to start on that...I am assuming (nay hoping) that you are being facetious.

Forcing a business to hire employees against all rules of profitability through penalties will have one guaranteed effect. The end of that business. Eventually you will have no businesses and we will be back to a barter economy. What is minimum wage then? One chicken per day?
 

Traditio

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That question is not simple at all, but I'll try to answer it. The trouble is that it is a moral question that does not address what an individual should or should not do, but rather how things should be. In an ideal world, of course, everyone's needs would be provided for and nobody would have to pay for anything and little white children and little black children would walk down the street hand in hand and politicians would all be honest blokes who could be trusted with absolute power and...

But we don't live in an ideal world. So, to answer your question, no, of course people's well-being "should" be universally provided for, at least for those who work or are, for a reason that is no fault of their own, unable to work.

Then we fundamentally are agreed.

But the real question here is how this should be accomplished. You claim that the State should use force to guarantee that everyone is paid what you consider a decent wage. The problem arises when you realize that this takes people who would have had horrible jobs and leaves them with no job at all, which is even worse.

And why would the jobs disappear? Because greedy profiteers are greedy profiteers. The solution is to penalize, tax and punish those evil hoarders.

Instead, I think we should take seriously the Divine admonition to succor the poor, and do it out of our own resources, not those of others. Do you have the right to take what belongs to someone else if it's for a good cause? I don't think so. Does the State have that right?

If you don't have a rightful claim to your "belongings," then the State does well to take it from you and give it to those to whom it really belongs.

That's a little iffier, but I still think it should be avoided where possible, particularly where it interferes with the right of consenting adults to enter into voluntary, mutually beneficial economic relations

There's no such thing as "voluntary, mutually beneficial" anything in cases where there are massive power disparities.
 

Traditio

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Wow....I'm not even sure where to start on that...I am assuming (nay hoping) that you are being facetious.

Forcing a business to hire employees against all rules of profitability through penalties will have one guaranteed effect. The end of that business. Eventually you will have no businesses and we will be back to a barter economy. What is minimum wage then? One chicken per day?

Where private enterprise fails, the State must step in. ;)

"We are, in other words, a state which controls all forces acting in nature. We control political forces, we control moral forces we control economic forces, therefore we are a full-blown Corporative state. We stand for a new principle in the world, we stand for sheer, categorical, definitive antithesis to the world of democracy, plutocracy, free-masonry, to the world which still abides by the fundamental principles laid down in 1789" ("Doctrine of Fascism," Mussolini).
 

Samstarrett

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Then we fundamentally are agreed.

Well, sure, if we want to play the "perfect world" game. The trouble is that we don't live in that world, and I find your means of getting there repulsive.

And why would the jobs disappear? Because greedy profiteers are greedy profiteers. The solution is to penalize, tax and punish those evil hoarders.

:rotfl:

Yes, tax and punish those who make profits. That will create a strong incentive to start businesses and produce and innovate!

If you don't have a rightful claim to your "belongings," then the State does well to take it from you and give it to those to whom it really belongs.

The rightfulness of one's claim to one's belongings has no particular relation to the amount of stuff one possesses.

There's no such thing as "voluntary, mutually beneficial" anything in cases where there are massive power disparities.

Yes, there is. Even at very low-wage jobs, the employee and the employer must both agree to the hiring of the worker, and both the employer and the employee are better off after the worker is hired than before.
 

Traditio

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:rotfl:

Yes, tax and punish those who make profits. That will create a strong incentive to start businesses and produce and innovate!

I have no problem with profit. What I have a problem with is profit at the expense of employee welfare. Besides, I've already made another thread on why we shouldn't understand innovation/productivity and the profit motive as going hand in hand. See my thread on the University.

The rightfulness of one's claim to one's belongings has no particular relation to the amount of stuff one possesses.

How did the CEO get his belongings? Did he create them all by his lonesome?

Yes, there is. Even at very low-wage jobs, the employee and the employer must both agree to the hiring of the worker, and both the employer and the employee are better off after the worker is hired than before.

I don't deny that there is a contract. I dispute the free voluntariness of the contract. The power disparity constrains the free consent of the employee.
 

Granite

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There probably should be one in place to prevent the worst of exploitation. Whenever business has been given an inch they've taken a mile.
 

Granite

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Seriously. Is any exploitation acceptable?

No, but it is inevitable, sorry to say. Whenever business can get away with treating its workers inhumanely, they do so--a minimum national wage is at least one of many safe guards and checks against the abuse, though.
 

Traditio

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No, but it is inevitable, sorry to say. Whenever business can get away with treating its workers inhumanely, they do so--a minimum national wage is at least one of many safe guards and checks against the abuse, though.

That means that there should be lots of regulation, not a minimum amount.
 

Buzzword

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Granite said:
No, but it is inevitable, sorry to say. Whenever business can get away with treating its workers inhumanely, they do so--a minimum national wage is at least one of many safe guards and checks against the abuse, though.

At the same time, most studies show that whenever employees can get away with getting paid more to do less, they do so.

Trad's been on a trip about how employers are in a position of undue power over their employees, but how many of us working for hourly wages have taken advantage of that fact to be lazy and/or make the time run faster?

Employers write the paychecks, but in many cases the employees determine what they're getting paid to do.

Especially those on salary or tenure, where their pay is guaranteed no matter how many/few hours they work.
 

Samstarrett

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Where private enterprise fails, the State must step in. ;)

Why? Why is it the State in particular which has to pick up the slack when other societal institutions fail?

"We are, in other words, a state which controls all forces acting in nature. We control political forces, we control moral forces we control economic forces, therefore we are a full-blown Corporative state. We stand for a new principle in the world, we stand for sheer, categorical, definitive antithesis to the world of democracy, plutocracy, free-masonry, to the world which still abides by the fundamental principles laid down in 1789" ("Doctrine of Fascism," Mussolini).

That is truly frightening. Viva il Re! Abasso Il Duce!
 

some other dude

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There's a massive difference between the man-woman sexual relationship and the employer-employee work relationship.

I never claimed otherwise

I don't think that I need to go about explaining why this is so, since I think you already can see why they are different. But I'm certainly not above doing so if you think it necessary.

Since you seem to be on a strawman kick this afternoon, have fun if you wish. :idunno:





Meanwhile, the reason I mentioned it was to point out the fallacy of your argument. :thumb:
 

some other dude

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If you don't have a rightful claim to your "belongings," then the State does well to take it from you and give it to those to whom it really belongs.



:doh: If I don't have a fundamental right to my belongings, then nobody else does either - not the state, not those to whom you claim they truly belong.
 

Krsto

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Quit you're bellyaching! You get three hots and a cot and you get to blow up stuff and shoot big guns for a living! :p

My kid w/ little college education and only 3 years in the navy gets paid more than me with 7 years of college so yeah, like Berean said, quit yer bellyachin'. And I don't even get free tuition or medical benefits.
 

Granite

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At the same time, most studies show that whenever employees can get away with getting paid more to do less, they do so.

This sounds right though I'd like to see the studies you have in mind.

Trad's been on a trip about how employers are in a position of undue power over their employees, but how many of us working for hourly wages have taken advantage of that fact to be lazy and/or make the time run faster?

Few of us have, but I'd also submit that folks in these jobs are at greater risk of being exploited--heck, at greater risk, period, considering some of the truly foul and dangerous grunt work out there.
 
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