toldailytopic: People say: You can't legislate morality. Is that true?

[Atheist PhD]

So 50 million unborn babies were murdered in the womb (primarily out of convenience) during the 37 year period BEFORE Roe v Wade?

So what you're telling me do is if we discontinue all laws dealing with armed robbery, murder and rape, etc. etc. etc. tommorrow, crime won't increase (there's a word for that, I think they call it "anarchy").

Do you honestly think that the power of the sword has no deterring affect on society?

If so, here's what I would like you to do:

Drive up alongside a police vehicle stopped at a stoplight. Revvvvvv your engine to get the officer's attention; roll down your window and SHOUT "I ain't afraid of no stinkin laws!" and speed through the light.
(throw in the "bird" for good measure).

Bail's on me as long as you share the story here online.

I'm sorry my security clearance doesn't allow me to understand the level of incompetence your post represents. Try reading it and then try applying it to some real-world sense and try me again. Thanks.

But seriously, I've never advocated doing away with all laws. Roe V Wade IS a law, it is a reality, and until it is repealled, if ever, I simply see it as a law and respect it as such. I'm not even sure how you went off on such a weird tangent as you did, but I keep trying. Anyway, keep trying, MAYBE one day you Right Wingers can get Roe V Wade overturned, but it won't stop abortions, and my guess is since abortions have become a part of the norm in society, it won't even deter them. Now, with the "morning after" pill and other non-invasive methods for aborting an unwanted pregnancy, do you really thing you can ever stop it... Good luck, you guys are going to NEED it.. badly...

 

[Todah]

The TheologyOnline.com TOPIC OF THE DAY for September 7th, 2010 10:04 AM

toldailytopic: People say: You can't legislate morality. Is that true?

The Lord God legislated morality for the Israelites, at Mount Sinai. Did that mean that their was no idolatry, no murder, no adultery, etc. Of course not. It was because the law was perfect, but people are not. The people had hearts of stone, rather than hearts of flesh. The laws can not make one's heart, right. The law of God sets morality, and sets the standard. It also defines the punishment for violating the standards.

Men used to incorporate, most of the same standards, in the laws of man-made government. It is not the job of government to make men moral. It is the job of government to restrain evil, through methods of punishment.

In America today, Adultery, abortion, and homosexuality, to name just a few, are not considered evil, by our government, and there is therefore, no restraint on them, anymore.

There is only some social, and some religious restraint on them, but the numbers are dwindling daily.

Church and culture can not do the job, that government was meant to do.

The results, on this country are obvious, and have been very beneficial to adulterers, abortionists, and homosexuals.




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[aSeattleConserv]

I'm sorry my security clearance doesn't allow me to understand the level of incompetence your post represents. Try reading it and then try applying it to some real-world sense and try me again. Thanks.

If you really do have a doctorate, if I were you I'd ask for a refund.

But seriously, I've never advocated doing away with all laws.

Of course not, just the ones that don't suit your own personal needs.

Roe V Wade IS a law, it is a reality, and until it is repealled, if ever, I simply see it as a law and respect it as such. I'm not even sure how you went off on such a weird tangent as you did, but I keep trying. Anyway, keep trying, MAYBE one day you Right Wingers can get Roe V Wade overturned, but it won't stop abortions, and my guess is since abortions have become a part of the norm in society, it won't even deter them. Now, with the "morning after" pill and other non-invasive methods for aborting an unwanted pregnancy, do you really thing you can ever stop it... Good luck, you guys are going to NEED it.. badly...

I deal with egomaniac atheists like you daily. You honestly believe that you can defeat God; amazing.

 

[Todah]

But seriously, I've never advocated doing away with all laws. Roe V Wade IS a law, it is a reality, and until it is repealled, if ever, I simply see it as a law and respect it as such. I'm not even sure how you went off on such a weird tangent as you did, but I keep trying. Anyway, keep trying, MAYBE one day you Right Wingers can get Roe V Wade overturned, but it won't stop abortions, and my guess is since abortions have become a part of the norm in society, it won't even deter them. Now, with the "morning after" pill and other non-invasive methods for aborting an unwanted pregnancy, do you really thing you can ever stop it... Good luck, you guys are going to NEED it.. badly...

It is important to define what is wrong as illegal, regardless of whether technology has surpassed the human ability to catch lawbreakers, or not.

For instance, most everyone agrees stealing is wrong. Since downloading theft is so prevalent, and nearly impossible to stop, should we make it legal? And if we did, then it would seem fair to make the theft of your discs, cds and dvds legal as well........and while we are at it, let's make purse snatching and auto theft legal as well as long as they don't involve assault.

If abortion were ever to be made illegal again, then all abortifacient pills would be made illegal as well. It does not mean that abortions will cease, it means if you get caught, you will experience the punishment, prescribed by the law.

In my worldview, God holds "us" responsible for public sins, He takes care of the private, secret sins of the individuals. That is not our business, it is His.

"Most" people have had no interest in hunting down those who had secret abortions, or have secret sex lives. We just do not want abortion clinics on our street corners, nor houses of prostitution, nor gay parades.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

If abortion were ever to be made illegal again, then all abortifacient pills would be made illegal as well. It does not mean that abortions will cease, it means if you get caught, you will experience the punishment, prescribed by the law.

Are you trying to say that the (legitmate) laws of man and the punishment that goes with it ISN'T a deterrent to crime?

Of course abortions won't cease (just as murder of born human beings hasn't ceased because of murder laws). The amount of abortions will however DECREASE.

 

[Todah]

Are you trying to say that the (legitmate) laws of man and the punishment that goes with it ISN'T a deterrent to crime?

Of course abortions won't cease (just as murder of born human beings hasn't ceased because of murder laws). The amount of abortions will however DECREASE.

If enforced properly and swiftly, punishment is a deterrent to crime. That is obvious in countries where it is practiced.

The amount of abortions will decrease in most countries. Nigeria is held up as an example to disprove that. However Nigeria has two major exceptions, besides life of mother,physical health of mother, and mental health of mother. Under these two exceptions hospitals and clinics perform hundreds of thousands of abortions per year, and the law is not regularly nor strictly enforced.

In other words, practically speaking, it is still legal. There are some arrests made each year.

 

[chrysostom]

most seem to be focusing on the word morality
and
the real question is should we legislate it

yes we should legislate morality
but
only if there is a victim

the purpose of legislation is to protect me from you

the purpose morality is to protect me from me

 

[bybee]

Well

Well

most seem to be focusing on the word morality
and
the real question is should we legislate it

yes we should legislate morality
but
only if there is a victim

the purpose of legislation is to protect me from you

the purpose morality is to protect me from me

I might add that the purpose of morality is to help me keep in touch with God.
Someone once said it may be that we cannot legislate morality but we can create a moral climate which will affect and help to form moral behavior.

 

[Delmar]

The argument from Supreme Authority doesn't make it right, sorry.

No, but God only does what is right.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

If enforced properly and swiftly, punishment is a deterrent to crime. That is obvious in countries where it is practiced.

The amount of abortions will decrease in most countries. Nigeria is held up as an example to disprove that. However Nigeria has two major exceptions, besides life of mother,physical health of mother, and mental health of mother. Under these two exceptions hospitals and clinics perform hundreds of thousands of abortions per year, and the law is not regularly nor strictly enforced.

In other words, practically speaking, it is still legal. There are some arrests made each year.

Being that Nigeria has one of the highest crime rates in the world, I'm not sure if using a country that is located 2 feet north of Hell is a good example.

"Nigeria has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Murder often accompanies even minor burglaries."
http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/worldreference/NG/crime.html

 

[aSeattleConserv]

Nononono. Those aren't "legislating morality". We should never legislate something based on somebody's morality. Those you mentioned (murder, rape, molestation, and theft) are legislating rights, which is a very important concept to grasp. Everybody has a right to life, liberty, and property, and those rights end as soon as another's starts.

What if that "somebody" is God Newman? You are aware that our laws are (or at least once were) legislated on God's laws aren't you? (until godless Libertarians like you came along).

 

[Skavau]

What if that "somebody" is God Newman? You are aware that our laws are (or at least once were) legislated on God's laws aren't you? (until godless Libertarians like you came along).

You might very strongly believe your specific interpretation of Yahweh to be objective, necessary and the only path to reconciliation and reward - but nonetheless, it remains a belief. We live in multicultural, multireligious and multiethnic societies. Ultimately, pluralistic. You would not appreciate it if Muslims came along and decreed that you must be subjugated under their interpretation and understanding of Sharia Law and so millions of people who live in the west, and are members by birthright of free nations would also not like to be told that their personal liberty is now void because some people believe that they are doing God's work.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

You might very strongly believe your specific interpretation of Yahweh to be objective, necessary and the only path to reconciliation and reward - but nonetheless, it remains a belief. We live in multicultural, multireligious and multiethnic societies. Ultimately, pluralistic. You would not appreciate it if Muslims came along and decreed that you must be subjugated under their interpretation and understanding of Sharia Law and so millions of people who live in the west, and are members by birthright of free nations would also not like to be told that their personal liberty is now void because some people believe that they are doing God's work.

Such pretty words used by such a pretty boy.

You don't have a clue when it comes to the differences between Christianity and Islam do you?

Class is in session:

"Islam and Secular Humanism are Two Sides of the Same Coin".
http://americanvision.org/3391/islam-and-secular-humanism-are-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/

 

[Skavau]

Such pretty words used by such a pretty boy.

Flirting? So kind!

You don't have a clue when it comes to the differences between Christianity and Islam do you?

Class is in session:

I don't care. It doesn't matter and had nothing to do with what I said. Read it again:

"You might very strongly believe your specific interpretation of Yahweh to be objective, necessary and the only path to reconciliation and reward - but nonetheless, it remains a belief. We live in multicultural, multireligious and multiethnic societies. Ultimately, pluralistic. You would not appreciate it if Muslims came along and decreed that you must be subjugated under their interpretation and understanding of Sharia Law and so millions of people who live in the west, and are members by birthright of free nations would also not like to be told that their personal liberty is now void because some people believe that they are doing God's work."

"Islam and Secular Humanism are Two Sides of the Same Coin".http://americanvision.org/3391/islam-and-secular-humanism-are-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/

Okay, the first part of that article is just talking about Ibn Warraq - an apostate who I am familiar with. Then finally it begins to talk about what it said in the start:

But what’s more important is this: Secular humanism will never be an alternative to Islam because theologically, Islam and secular humanism are the two sides of the same coin.

Nonsense.

.In this, Islam is not different from secular humanism. Since there is no God Who speaks directly to men in secular humanism, eventually it is the powerful men, or the intellectuals, or some other elite that must deliver the truths to men in order to build and sustain a working society. The fact that individual men can doubt those truths doesn’t make it better: they still have to submit since there is no higher recourse for them to appeal to.

This is some of the biggest nonsense I've ever read. Proponents of sharia Law, (the political component of Islam) claim to be acting upon direct mandates from God. They believe in the imposition of divine law on at the very least Muslim land.

The debate held by Islamic scholars regarding what Sharia Law should consist of happens to consist mostly of debate over the how accurate some of the Hadiths are. It is still declared to be a mandatory rulebook from God. Secular Humanism takes all the power away from that and puts it back into the realm of rational inquiry, democracy and importantly humanity. The idea of decree by God, or by some divine mandate of any kind would simply be invalid under secularism.

 

[aSeattleConserv]

This is some of the biggest nonsense I've ever read. Proponents of sharia Law, (the political component of Islam) claim to be acting upon direct mandates from God. They believe in the imposition of divine law on at the very least Muslim land.

Yeah, and their "god" promises them 72 virgins as well (makes me wonder why Libertarians such as Newman don't convert to Islam).

Class is STILL in session.

http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/christianity-vs.-islam

 

[Granite]

Such pretty words used by such a pretty boy.

You don't have a clue when it comes to the differences between Christianity and Islam do you?

Class is in session:

"Islam and Secular Humanism are Two Sides of the Same Coin".
http://americanvision.org/3391/islam-and-secular-humanism-are-two-sides-of-the-same-coin/

This is really idiotic, even for you.

 

[Todah]

Being that Nigeria has one of the highest crime rates in the world, I'm not sure if using a country that is located 2 feet north of Hell is a good example.

"Nigeria has one of the highest crime rates in the world. Murder often accompanies even minor burglaries."
http://dev.prenhall.com/divisions/hss/worldreference/NG/crime.html

I am simply telling you what pro abortion people say. They say that making abortion illegal does not reduce its occurrence. They will cite countries like Nigeria, without giving the details that I did. In other words, for most practical purposes, abortion is still legal in Nigeria, therefore, of course the rate has not gone down much. The exceptions to reasons for abortion are huge, { both physical and mental health of the mother} and hospitals and clinics perform hundreds of thousands per year. Get it ?

If the law simply said abortion is illegal except for the life of the mother, and they enforced that law, then the abortion rate would drop dramatically. Pro abortionists would then argue that it would not. The 600,00 hospital-clinic abortions would all become back alley and self performed abortions, with tens of thousands of women dying, and it would be the fault of the new law for their deaths, and not the women or those they hire. That is what pro-aborts would say.

In the mind of people who favor abortion, there will always be a reason to keep abortion legal. Get it?

I argue that no matter what reason anyone comes up with, killing a baby in the womb, is a matter of morality, and no matter what happens, after the passage of a law, outlawing abortion {even if abortion rates did not go down}, it should still remain illegal.

I am certain fornication and abortion rates would drop in America, if abortion were outlawed ,and the law, and its penalties, strictly enforced. Millions of babies and mothers lives would be saved. Get It?

 

[aSeattleConserv]

This is really idiotic, even for you.

Fido, adults are talking here. Please don't interrupt.

 

[Nick M]

Roe V Wade IS a law, it is a reality, and until it is repealled, if ever, I simply see it as a law and respect it as such. ...

The SS said the same thing about Hitler's answer to the Jewish question.

 

[Skavau]

Yeah, and their "god" promises them 72 virgins as well (makes me wonder why Libertarians such as Newman don't convert to Islam).

Because Libertarianism is possibly one of the most incompatible ideologies with Islam around. Only Objectivism, or a very left-wing pagan would fare worse.

Class is STILL in session.

http://www.faithfacts.org/world-religions-and-theology/christianity-vs.-islam

I don't care. This has nothing to do with what I said.