toldailytopic: Is getting a divorce immoral?

[CabinetMaker]

Thats your opinion.

Well, no, its not. It is what Jesus said. Very plainly. [jesus] I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” [/jesus] What is unclear about this statement.

The issue is when an individual or group starts to force their opinion of morality down others throats.

You either believe what Jesus said or you do not.

What Jesus said before the infamous remarriage statement and after it is probably MORE important than the statement itself and you still have not addressed his servants post.

What Jesus said before the remarriage statement is that a man and woman were created to be joined as one flesh, never to be separated. Moses made an allowance for our weaknesses.

In terms of what His servants said, are you referring to the passage regarding the eunuchs?

 

[highlife]

Well, no, its not. It is what Jesus said. Very plainly. [jesus] I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.” [/jesus] What is unclear about this statement.

You either believe what Jesus said or you do not.

What Jesus said before the remarriage statement is that a man and woman were created to be joined as one flesh, never to be separated. Moses made an allowance for our weaknesses.

In terms of what His servants said, are you referring to the passage regarding the eunuchs?

Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law of which divorce was apart of, we are no less weak now than we were then. He was stating the way things were meant to be in the beginning. Using that statement to harrass other christians is not what Jesus would have us do. I do not choose to live like a eunch, Jesus says thoes that can accept this teaching should, it is not spoken as an absolute commandment.

 

[CabinetMaker]

Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law of which divorce was apart of, we are no less weak now than we were then. He was stating the way things were meant to be in the beginning. Using that statement to harrass other christians is not what Jesus would have us do.

Nor would Jesus have us divorce and remarry willy nillly. You may have a caviler attitude towards divorce and remarriage but God does not. At some point, divorce and remarriage crosses the line into sexual immorality and closes the door to the Kingdom. I am not saying don't remarry, I am saying very carefully consider getting remarried before doing so.

 

[highlife]

Nor would Jesus have us divorce and remarry willy nillly. You may have a caviler attitude towards divorce and remarriage but God does not. At some point, divorce and remarriage crosses the line into sexual immorality and closes the door to the Kingdom. I am not saying don't remarry, I am saying very carefully consider getting remarried before doing so.

So remarriage is the unpardonable sin if the circumstances of the divorce are not ok'ed by the catholic church? I agree divorce should not be taken lightly but I feel thats where our agreement ends. Its an issue that is between the individual, God and the new wife and THATS IT.

 

[JPPT1974]

Divorce should never be taken lightly. As that could affect children involved. Who are the overlooked but important victims you can say in this tragedy of divorce. If you stop and think about it.

 

[CabinetMaker]

So remarriage is the unpardonable sin if the circumstances of the divorce are not ok'ed by the catholic church? I agree divorce should not be taken lightly but I feel thats where our agreement ends. Its an issue that is between the individual, God and the new wife and THATS IT.

Well, God said that if you divorce your wife for any reason but for them having an extra marital affair then getting remarried amounts to adultery. The Catholic church has nothing to do with this. Jesus said it. What you feel is all fine and dandy and utterly meaningless. Morals are not based on what you feel (unless you are an atheist) they are based on what God says.

 

[highlife]

Well, God said that if you divorce your wife for any reason but for them having an extra marital affair then getting remarried amounts to adultery. The Catholic church has nothing to do with this. Jesus said it. What you feel is all fine and dandy and utterly meaningless. Morals are not based on what you feel (unless you are an atheist) they are based on what God says.

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law of which divorce was apart of.

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

You as Joe church goer does not get to decide what "any and every reason is" that is strictly between the individual, god and the new potential spouse.

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

In the beginning this was all true. Not so much after sin was introduced to the world.

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

We are not back at the beginning, therefore divorce is still valid.

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

Jesus even says not everyone can accept this word, the eunuchs are not really relavent to the first and last sentences but a separate thought.

He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

No condemnation of the woman at the well who had had 5 husbands, that is the difference between how Jesus deals with regular lay people who are trying to make the best of things and iron fisted legalist pharisies and money changers. Which side are you and the catholic church on?

You can do a word search on "sexual immorailty" and in EVERY instance I can find it is tied to idol worship (temple prostitution, prostitution, sex with animals, etc).

Divorce sucks but remarraige is the only way for someone who burns with passion to have some semblance of a quality of life while on this earth. Life is short but not that short that I want to be sexually frustrated for the remainder of it and Jesus seems to agree in the way he handled the woman at the well.

Even later on in 1 cor Paul says that sexual refusal is a no no in a marriage and I beleive that its grounds for divorce, you can disagree since its not explicit but just seeing the damage a prudish wife can do leads me to believe its not ok behavior in marriage and if done enough is divorcable.

This is the last time that I put this much time into this if all I get back is catholic dogma and sound bits.

 

[CabinetMaker]

17 “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18 For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Jesus did not come to abolish the law of which divorce was apart of.

Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?”

You as Joe church goer does not get to decide what "any and every reason is" that is strictly between the individual, god and the new potential spouse.

4 “Haven’t you read,” he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’[a] 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.”

In the beginning this was all true. Not so much after sin was introduced to the world.

7 “Why then,” they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?”
8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”
10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.”

We are not back at the beginning, therefore divorce is still valid.

11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

Jesus even says not everyone can accept this word, the eunuchs are not really relavent to the first and last sentences but a separate thought.

He told her, “Go, call your husband and come back.”

17 “I have no husband,” she replied.

Jesus said to her, “You are right when you say you have no husband. 18 The fact is, you have had five husbands, and the man you now have is not your husband. What you have just said is quite true.”

19 “Sir,” the woman said, “I can see that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you Jews claim that the place where we must worship is in Jerusalem.”
21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem. 22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews. 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

25 The woman said, “I know that Messiah” (called Christ) “is coming. When he comes, he will explain everything to us.”

26 Then Jesus declared, “I, the one speaking to you—I am he.”

No condemnation of the woman at the well who had had 5 husbands, that is the difference between how Jesus deals with regular lay people who are trying to make the best of things and iron fisted legalist pharisies and money changers. Which side are you and the catholic church on?

You can do a word search on "sexual immorailty" and in EVERY instance I can find it is tied to idol worship (temple prostitution, prostitution, sex with animals, etc)

If you cannot accept that teaching, then don't. I think it is a risky path to follow given that the man I call savior plainly advised against it. You say it is between you and God and so it is. But remember that within the Body, we can and should hold each other accountable for our actions.

 

[highlife]

If you cannot accept that teaching, then don't. I think it is a risky path to follow given that the man I call savior plainly advised against it. You say it is between you and God and so it is. But remember that within the Body, we can and should hold each other accountable for our actions.

I agree and that is easy to do on cut and dry issues like stealing, etc. In matters of divorce its much more sticky, at some point you have to recognize the individuals relationship with God.

I believe the pharisies were trying to pull a fast one by divorcing their wives so they could marry a mistress, where as the woman at the well likely had different circumstances. We dont know because its not explicitly writen but it is clear there are stark differences in how Jesus handled thoes situations.

It would be nice if we had a giant exhaustive list of all the possible circumstances for divorce outlined in the bible, but we dont so the church needs to cut people some slack in this regard and use common sense.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I agree and that is easy to do on cut and dry issues like stealing, etc. In matters of divorce its much more sticky, at some point you have to recognize the individuals relationship with God.

And individual need to recognize that our brothers and sisters in Christ are there to help us. Telling a fellow Christian that they may be heading in the wrong direction is not judging them, it is encouraging them.

I believe the pharisies were trying to pull a fast one by divorcing their wives so they could marry a mistress, where as the woman at the well likely had different circumstances. We dont know because its not explicitly writen but it is clear there are stark differences in how Jesus handled thoes situations.

This is exactly what the Pharisees were doing. So when we do it, we are guilty of exactly the same thing. Yes thee are different circumstances where getting a divorce and getting remarried may be acceptable. In general, though, the church should not be giving blanket support to divorce and remarriage. Since, as you point out, each case is different, each case should be examined individually and the church (Body of Christ) should provide proper guidance. The individual will ultimately make their own decision, but they should have guidance.

It would be nice if we had a giant exhaustive list of all the possible circumstances for divorce outlined in the bible, but we dont so the church needs to cut people some slack in this regard and use common sense.

The church must always provide sound guidance on moral matters regardless of what individuals think.

 

[highlife]

And individual need to recognize that our brothers and sisters in Christ are there to help us. Telling a fellow Christian that they may be heading in the wrong direction is not judging them, it is encouraging them.

This is exactly what the Pharisees were doing. So when we do it, we are guilty of exactly the same thing. Yes thee are different circumstances where getting a divorce and getting remarried may be acceptable. In general, though, the church should not be giving blanket support to divorce and remarriage. Since, as you point out, each case is different, each case should be examined individually and the church (Body of Christ) should provide proper guidance. The individual will ultimately make their own decision, but they should have guidance.

The church must always provide sound guidance on moral matters regardless of what individuals think.

I agree to an extent, but I think on really grey areas like this the individuals offering the guidance need to offer it as more advice than as concrete biblical truth. For instance if you caught someone stealing you could more solidly rebuke them, but if a man wants to divorce his wife becuase she is repeatidly misbehaving as a prude THAT is probably THE sticky issue. I know too many christians who think its totally acceptable for a wife to behave that way with out the conseqeunce of a divorce.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I agree to an extent, but I think on really grey areas like this the individuals offering the guidance need to offer it as more advice than as concrete biblical truth. For instance if you caught someone stealing you could more solidly rebuke them, but if a man wants to divorce his wife becuase she is repeatidly misbehaving as a prude THAT is probably THE sticky issue. I know too many christians who think its totally acceptable for a wife to behave that way with out the conseqeunce of a divorce.

Divorcing a woman because her sex drive is less than yours makes you guilty of the same thing the Pharisees were doing. Divorcing her is not right.

 

[highlife]

Divorcing a woman because her sex drive is less than yours makes you guilty of the same thing the Pharisees were doing. Divorcing her is not right.

The issue is you cant back that statement up with scripture and as the one issuing guidance the burden of biblical proof is on you. I can however back up with 1 cor that being a prude is anything but ok.

 

[CabinetMaker]

The issue is you cant back that statement up with scripture and as the one issuing guidance the burden of biblical proof is on you. I can however back up with 1 cor that being a prude is anything but ok.

I can. Matthew 19. "...For any reason EXCEPT adultery..." Being "prude" is is not being adulterous so you have no reason to divorce.

 

[highlife]

I can. Matthew 19. "...For any reason EXCEPT adultery..." Being "prude" is is not being adulterous so you have no reason to divorce.

I consider being a prude to being sexual immoral in a marriage relationship. I believe the word Jesus used was porniea and not molek. 1 cor supports that prudishness in a marriage is wrong behavior so its not too far of a stretch to call it sexual immorality in the context of a marraige.

Of course now we are mucking down in the weeds of legalism. When you are bullying someone to stay in a relationship where their spouse is doing evil to them by refusing sexually then you are in the wrong. Sexual refusal is unrepentant sin and to "strongly rebuke" them to not divorce is bullying and harrasment.

 

[Angel4Truth]

Refusing sex altogether and refusing " certain sex acts" causing you to seek others to get them - as you implied earlier , is by far not the same thing.

What you did was immoral.

 

[CabinetMaker]

I consider being a prude to being sexual immoral in a marriage relationship.

That's nice. God doesn't. What God thinks is more important than what you or I think.

I believe the word Jesus used was porniea and not molek. 1 cor supports that prudishness in a marriage is wrong behavior so its not too far of a stretch to call it sexual immorality in the context of a marraige.

Being prudish is a failure of the prude to honor their marriage vows and obligations. Paul does say that men and women should not withhold sex from each other for more than a short time. However, this is still not grounds for a divorce. If you divorce a prude simply because you want more sex then you would be guilty of adultery in any subsequent marriage.

Of course now we are mucking down in the weeds of legalism. When you are bullying someone to stay in a relationship where their spouse is doing evil to them by refusing sexually then you are in the wrong. Sexual refusal is unrepentant sin and to "strongly rebuke" them to not divorce is bullying and harrasment.

This sounds like a person that would rather run away from a problem rather than finding a way to fix it. God expects you to fix it. If you can't, God would allow a divorce but because there was no adultery involved, any subsequent marriage would be adulterous.

 

[highlife]

That's nice. God doesn't. What God thinks is more important than what you or I think.

Being prudish is a failure of the prude to honor their marriage vows and obligations. Paul does say that men and women should not withhold sex from each other for more than a short time. However, this is still not grounds for a divorce. If you divorce a prude simply because you want more sex then you would be guilty of adultery in any subsequent marriage.

This sounds like a person that would rather run away from a problem rather than finding a way to fix it. God expects you to fix it. If you can't, God would allow a divorce but because there was no adultery involved, any subsequent marriage would be adulterous.

Well that is quite a conumdrum isent it. I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think some christians get too hung up on mathew 19 and fail to take into account mathew 19:11.

When individuals like yourself or the church as a whole cant accept that others cant accept mathew 19:9 and use mathew 19:11 and you subsequently use condesending language it does not really do anybody any good. Also 1 cor 7:9 says that if you burn with passion you should marry, it does not give a caviat that if you are divorced you just sit and suffer, that is catholic church dogma.

 

[highlife]

Refusing sex altogether and refusing " certain sex acts" causing you to seek others to get them - as you implied earlier , is by far not the same thing.

What you did was immoral.

That is your opinion and your persistance to push your opinion as gospel is immoral. 1 cor says do not defraud, if you are refusing ANYTHING it is defrauding.

Thats really all there is too it, you can disagree but you cant really back it up. The fact that such fights have to be engaged with the church or certian individuals to maintian ones freedom in christ and prevent the church from wrecking ones quality of life with a heavy yolk is unfortunate.

These are the sorts of disagreements that wreck the church, some church women love their treasured sin of prudishness against their husbands but yet want the security of that relatinship with out the consequence of divorce. Of course a man who stays in such situation becuase of the churchs intimidation tactics is weak anyways.

 

[Rusha]

That is your opinion and your persistance to push your opinion as gospel is immoral. 1 cor says do not defraud, if you are refusing ANYTHING it is defrauding.

Thats really all there is too it, you can disagree but you cant really back it up.

There are quite a few relevant reasons to refuse sex ... to name a few:

"I just gave birth 12 hours ago" ...

"You were physically/verbally abuse ten minutes ago ... put your energy into finding ways to control your outbursts" ...

"You cheated" ...

"I am in traction/on the verge of toxemia/on bedrest/am exhausted /in pain" ...

IF a marriage cannot withstand one of the partners being unwilling to have sex 247 of everyday regardless of the location and circumstance, perhaps one shouldn't marry.

Also, there are certain specific acts that a partner would be perfectly justified in refusing.