To be fair, I'm pretty sure Annihilationists teach a SECOND physical death (In the Lake of Fire.)
Obviously.
Where do you find this view of Hell Biblically?
Note that I don't necessarily disagree. I know in some sense God's Wrath will be there, as that is what Christ suffered on the cross, but I don't claim to know exactly what Hell will look like.
John 3:18 Anyone who is condemned is so condemned because they do not believe.
Its not a choice. Read the end of Revelation 20. As well as all the other passages I've shared with you that show you there is no choice involved in any of this.
Do they or do they not choose to reject Him?
Can we have a decent Christian conversation without statements like these?:
Statements like what?
I haven't contradicted myself.
You say that because you don't realize you've done it.
You're delusional.
Let's be kind to one another as we discuss this important topic.
Ephesians 4:32 "Be kind and compassionate to one another..." (NIV)
I am being kind. I want you to understand the truth. If I were unkind I'd leave you to your delusion from the outset rather than attempt to teach you.
You would be correct, IF there was no resurrection. But those who die who are His will be resurrected and then they will have eternal life with Him. Those who die who are not His will be resurrected for judgment and go to the second death, which is death. The second time.
Did Christ suffer this "second death"?
True, but I don't know what else to call real death. The kind of death where a person isn't alive and conscious. Jesus truly died on the cross or else our sins have not been atoned for. Don't get hung up on the word "annihilation". It just means that those who reject Christ will be destroyed, just as the Bible says. It rejects the notion that a person who has been destroyed is also not destroyed but tormented in hell instead.
Jesus' soul was not annihilated.
Good! And I don't believe that God is going to send anyone to eternal torment either. It's nice to find common ground with other Christians.
:doh:
This is a very good illustration of how dense you are.
I have made it clear that God will, in fact, send people to the Lake of Fire where they will be tormented, day and night, forever and ever. What I said at the end there is that God will not be torturing them.
Okay, show me the verse in the Bible that says "Death, when it is used here actually means spiritual death and it is actually eternal life in Hell being tortured, because as the Good Book says Surely you will not die."
Any specific verses?
The term "spiritual death" is not even in the Bible. You say that my definition of death is highly flawed and utterly unbiblical. But your definition of death is actually the opposite of what death really means. If a person is alive forever and conscious of torment in hell, that is the opposite of death.
What do you think Paul meant when he wrote "And you
He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others." [Ephesians 2:1-3] or "And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross." [Colossians 2:13-14]?
What do you think "dead in your trespasses" means? Do you think we were physically dead? Do you think we were annihilated?
But go ahead and show me from the scriptures why you think "my" definition of death is highly flawed and unbiblical. Use scripture.
See above for two examples.
Then remember Romans 6:23. For if it meant physical death then no one who was in Christ would ever die a physical death and there would be no need for a second death for those who reject Him. And if it meant annihilation then Christ would have been annihilated to pay for our sin.
That is all I am asking the traditionalists to tell me.
Where does the Bible say that the wicked will go to Hell when they die where they will be tormented alive forever while they are dead? Which verse?
Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, it doesn't say the wages of sin is eternal torment in hell. John 3:16 shows the alternatives, perish or have eternal life. 2 Thessalonians 1:9 says that the penalty is eternal destruction, it doesn't say the penalty is eternal torment.
1 John 5:12 says "Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." It doesn't say "Whoever has the Son doesn't have eternal torment; whoever does not have the Son of God has eternal torment.
Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives
his mark on his forehead or on his hand, he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.”
-Revelation 14:9-11
