toldailytopic: Are public school teachers paid well enough?

[The Barbarian]

do you have to belong to the union?

No. I have a philosophic problem with unions for professional people. It ruined the legal profession, and almost ruined doctors, except that they never made it mandatory.

What portion of your pay goes to the union?

Even if I was part of a union, it wouldn't be much. If it was less of a union, I'd join; the big threat is lawsuits against teachers, and being in the union provides a legal insurance policy that scares off most lawyers unless they actually have a substantial case.

So far, the risk doesn't seem that great, but if I was starting as a teacher today, I'd think about it.

 

[Ps82]

you are not going to make any changes while the unions are in control of the democratic party

Did you see on the news today where all the Democrat legislators in Wisconsin ran and hid so they wouldn't have to vote up or down on changes for union policies? Or perhaps they did it just to stop the vote today.

The union members, government workers, and teachers were out in mass demonstrating against the changes (including the teachers who stayed out of work saying they were sick ...and some students who stayed out in support of them) ... It reminded me of the people in Greece.

Are the American people willing to accept tightening of the government belt or not?
Will principles and or school boards be brave enough to dock a day's pay from those lying about their illness to attend the demonstration?

Will lying pay off? It seems if you are a liberal - it may!

 

[kmoney]

Just curious, what sorts of lawsuits are brought against teachers?

 

[chrysostom]

No. I have a philosophic problem with unions for professional people. It ruined the legal profession, and almost ruined doctors, except that they never made it mandatory.



Even if I was part of a union, it wouldn't be much. If it was less of a union, I'd join; the big threat is lawsuits against teachers, and being in the union provides a legal insurance policy that scares off most lawyers unless they actually have a substantial case.

So far, the risk doesn't seem that great, but if I was starting as a teacher today, I'd think about it.

sounds like protectionism
with
the lawyers cooperating with the unions

 

[Lon]

do we have any teachers here that are willing to answer these questions?

Yeah, we have to belong. About 3-4% around $130 of my paycheck a month.

 

[chrysostom]

Yeah, we have to belong. About 3-4% around $130 of my paycheck a month.

would you vote to eliminate the union for teachers?

 

[Ps82]

Just curious, what sorts of lawsuits are brought against teachers?

You know, personally I never knew anyone who had a law-suit ever brought against them - thank goodness... but there was always the fear of it!

I guess a teacher could be sued if something happened to a student under her care. I was always afraid to let a child leave the room alone to go to the restroom. I tried to give many opportunities for them to have group restroom breaks during the day, but occasionally someone would say they had an emergency. If I denied them the opportunity to go ... then trouble might come for me ... if I let them go then I was taking a risk ... and it was just irresponsible to stop teaching and take the whole class, letting another student go with them ... might just lead to double risk. So what's a teacher to do??? I never had any aids in the room with me... nor were there any paid monitors in the hall areas.

If a child were hurt on the play ground at P.E. when it was my turn to pull duty ... etc. Really, anything could happen during a day.

Once a parent became really upset because a teacher of primary age children (3rd grade) stuck her head slightly inside the boys restroom door to correct the boys, because they had become so boisterous inside. Even though there was a wall screening any view inside the restroom from the doorway ... a little boy became upset that she had seen his privates and so complained to his parents. It was a big deal for awhile for her ... but no law suits came out of it.

We were told to never touch or hug a child ... that if a child hugged us then that would probably be okay ... but don't encourage it. There were warnings shared at faculty meetings about lawsuits elsewhere ... which led to a growing atmosphere of fear among teachers and principals over time.

Lawsuits can be brought for almost any reason these days ... and then a person must suffer while they try to clear their name ...

This atmosphere of fear within the educational system is damaging when it comes to the educational administrators standing up for what is right and best against people who have a political agenda and know how to use the courts to extort compliance.

I guess liberal educators stand a better chance of surviving this onslaught ... and MAYBE that's why there seems to be more liberal officials and teachers in public schools now. The conservatives, who could, have chosen home schooling and private schools... those would could not ... are left to deal with all the changes going on in public schools.

I'm glad that most of the years I taught, I could post copies of historical government documents and even copies of national prayers of our forefathers.

Now, I probably get sued or lose my job.

 

[The Barbarian]

I can afford to be a little smug. My kids do better than average in science for my district, and my district does better in science than the U.S average, and the U.S. does better in science than the world average .

Not so bad, um?

 

[Ps82]

I actually think that there is a need for public schools ... and that teachers should be fairly paid and treated... but I believe that citizens need to protect their rights of having input into what is taught in them ... or the right to bow out.

I think that people with either religious, political, or morality issues have found our public schools to be a great battle ground... and I've seen them win! I'm very proud of what people in Texas did to try to influence the content of text books. I think the liberals were shocked that anyone would dare stand up to them. Conservative citizens need to appreciate the individuals who led the debates with courage.

I still say, teachers would like better working conditions than a pay raise. If unions had worked toward that maybe that would have been a better goal... but they seemed to focus on salaries ... and on membership.

More money - more power - more power - more ...

 

[Ps82]

I can afford to be a little smug. My kids do better than average in science for my district, and my district does better in science than the U.S average, and the U.S. does better in science than the world average .

Not so bad, um?

Yes, there are successful school systems ... My county has one... but these successful schools are not immune to the intrusion of non-educational outside influences.

People have a right to stand up against things added to the school day, but most people fall into these categories:
too trusting, unaware, busy, unorganized, or too fearful to take a stand. That only leaves a few courageous... the rest of us followers should at least follow them with our support.

 

[rocketman]

I actually think that there is a need for public schools ... and that teachers should be fairly paid and treated... but I believe that citizens need to protect their rights of having input into what is taught in them ... or the right to bow out.

I think that people with either religious, political, or morality issues have found our public schools to be a great battle ground... and I've seen them win! I'm very proud of what people in Texas did to try to influence the content of text books. I think the liberals were shocked that anyone would dare stand up to them. Conservative citizens need to appreciate the individuals who led the debates with courage.

I still say, teachers would like better working conditions than a pay raise. If unions had worked toward that maybe that would have been a better goal... but they seemed to focus on salaries ... and on membership.

More money - more power - more power - more ...

Well put, you hit it on the nose... :thumb:

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian admits:
Even if I was part of a union, it wouldn't be much. If it was less of a union, I'd join; the big threat is lawsuits against teachers, and being in the union provides a legal insurance policy that scares off most lawyers unless they actually have a substantial case.

So far, the risk doesn't seem that great, but if I was starting as a teacher today, I'd think about it.

Chrysostome writes:

sounds like protectionism with the lawyers cooperating with the unions

Unless I was a large corporation, of course. Then I would just be exercising my legal rights.

The Constitution doesn't give individuals the right to counsel. Oh, wait...

What outrages you about a teacher having equal access to counsel? I realize that most of those sue-happy lawyers are really corporations, and you're a republican, but still...

 

[Cracked]

The union is a mixed bag. Building administrators need more real power over the teachers. That would go a long way to fix some problems.

 

[The Barbarian]

The union is a mixed bag. Building administrators need more real power over the teachers. That would go a long way to fix some problems.

The primary problem is the bureaucracy, not the teachers. Giving more power to the non-teachers would merely compound the problem.

Where the teachers have a lot of autonomy, good teachers excel regardless of what the administrators know or don't know. Where the administrators have more control, mediocrity becomes the norm.

And yes, a means of getting the bad teachers out is a must. But trying to micromanage the good teachers would fail as it always has. Some kinds of work you can't improve on by getting a bigger whip.

 

[Cracked]

The primary problem is the bureaucracy, not the teachers. Giving more power to the non-teachers would merely compound the problem.

Where the teachers have a lot of autonomy, good teachers excel regardless of what the administrators know or don't know. Where the administrators have more control, mediocrity becomes the norm.

And yes, a means of getting the bad teachers out is a must. But trying to micromanage the good teachers would fail as it always has. Some kinds of work you can't improve on by getting a bigger whip.

My experience is nearly the opposite. Good teachers are good regardless. It is the bad ones that bring everything down. These folks have security and the administrators, who know the woes of the school, can't touch them. Of course, you have to have good administrators too. We're not going to get a perfect system anyway you look at it. Basically, principals powerless and exist to get administrative duties done and be the whipping people for everyone else (students, teachers, parents, school boards, superintendents).

 

[Lon]

would you vote to eliminate the union for teachers?

At least to opt out, which we cannot do here in WA.

 

[Lon]

The primary problem is the bureaucracy, not the teachers. Giving more power to the non-teachers would merely compound the problem.

Where the teachers have a lot of autonomy, good teachers excel regardless of what the administrators know or don't know. Where the administrators have more control, mediocrity becomes the norm.

And yes, a means of getting the bad teachers out is a must. But trying to micromanage the good teachers would fail as it always has. Some kinds of work you can't improve on by getting a bigger whip.

Seconded. Very close to how I would have answered as well.

 

[Cracked]

Seconded. Very close to how I would have answered as well.

I don't know about this. If you want schools to improve, give building administrators more power because they are in the loop, as apposed to changed handed down from above by legislators that know nothing.

 

[chrysostom]

at what point do you hold the teachers responsible for the union?

 

[The Barbarian]

I think it might be a very interesting study to see how TIMSS data sorts out according to states where union membership is high, and where it is not.

Since that test is standardized across all states, and 40 other nations, it should be a good measurement too.

I don't know what the results will be, but I have a suspicion. Would you like me to take a look, Chrys? If it shows a good correlation between results and unions, would that change your opinion at all?