"Therefore, Abortion Must Remain Legal"

alwight

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Then stop acting like it does.


You used a 'c,' not an 's.' Try again.


Both of you used a 'c' in spelling the word, not an 's.'

From the moment of fertilization they are absolutely a person; they absolutely have a God-given right to life; it is absolutely wrong [ethically, morally, etc.] to take that life from them as they are absolutely not guilty of anything that forfeits that right.
You are very entitled to hold that opinion because that's all it is, but you are not entitled to force others to comply who honestly don't see it your way.

Both of you used a 'c' in spelling the word, not an 's.'
LH you are clearly confused, I don't think I ever actually mis-spelt it, find my quote if I did, and gc didn't either on the first occasion anyway, so you are not only being a spelling Nazi and pedant but a rather dishonest one at that. :nono:

So you really think that a scared young woman going to procure an illegal abortion would be offered a counsellor? Counsellors can easily be offered by legal abortion clinics, and if not it should be mandatory. How are the counsellors going to find these women otherwise?

If you were somewhat more aware of real life LH or could empathise then you would know that when a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy and that in law she had no other option but to remain that way, then a counsellor is not going to change that and therefore will hardly be high on her to-do list.

P.S.
Learn how to spell in international English.
Both remain unedited except to highlight.
 

alwight

New member
Life begins at fertilization of the egg. It requires a womb amongst other things to continue to develop and grow. Either one is pregnant or they are not....you can't be "just a little pregnant"...

...It is sick as in a selfish, and a horrific WRONG against mankind AND God (our Creator) to kill an unborn child by choice/on purpose. Apparently you took my descriptive words as an insult. I am going on a limb that you and I do not agree "on when life begins".
I wonder if you realise that most zygotes actually fail as a matter of course?
Up to two thirds of all conceptions terminate naturally.
If God exists then surely He can't think that a human person starts in that one magic moment can He? :think:
 

LKmommy

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I wonder if you realise that most zygotes actually fail as a matter of course?
Up to two thirds of all conceptions terminate naturally.

Miscarriages happen naturally and? *keyword natural...this is different you realize then conciously making a choice, then an appointment, gathering up $$, and then after your mini joke counseling at the abortion clinic, a person proceeds in allowing a doctor to willfully murder an unborn child OR conciously walking into a drugstore, asking for the abortion pill, and then conciously taking it with the sole purpose of murdering an innocent, unborn child.
If God exists
WOW...
you play for a different team than me.....

then surely He can't think that a human person starts in that one magic moment can He? :think:
God can do anything He wants. I am not His master, He is mine.....
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
Why is "pro-life" limited to the unborn but cares little about the person later in life such as in cases of capital punishment?

If you knew your child was going to grow up to be a serial killer wouldn't you want it aborted?
 

Shannon1581

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There is no justification for abortion, god created the person and you are destroying what god created, you are not only defying god you are murdering someone and you will go to hell for it.
 

mighty_duck

New member
I don't think I answered this completely enough.

Considering that world history is defined by wars... I think your bias has colored your judgement.

And it invalidated your point, too. That 5 year old being dead has a huge consequence not only on that family, that community, and even a little in that nation... but the 5 year old, too.
That is EXACTLY my point. We all agree that killing a 5 year old is a tragedy and an intrinsic wrong.

However, sometimes, it is justified (such as in war, when such an action may save many others). That doesn't make the child's death any less tragic, nor should it be ignored - even if it is ultimately justified.

But that's how the pro-lifers are behaving in regards to the mother's loss of sovereignty over her own body. They don't say it is justified given the ultimate good, they ignore there is any wrong at all, any other side to give consideration to.
 

Rusha

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Why is "pro-life" limited to the unborn but cares little about the person later in life such as in cases of capital punishment?

As someone who is anti-abortion, it comes down to protection of the innocent. Murderers are always a threat as long as they remain alive.

Unborn babies are always innocent and, by know fault of their own, are brought into existence.

If you knew your child was going to grow up to be a serial killer wouldn't you want it aborted?

If you knew your child would get hit by a car and die at the age of five or have an accident at work at the age of 20 that would leave them in a wheel chair, would you end their life PRIOR to these incidents occurring?

There is no way to know how our children will turn out ... or how long they will live or die. However, what *might* happen should never be the determining factor on protecting the life of the innocent.

As far as comparing the unborn to death row inmates ... the difference is that one is always innocent and without fault ...

The other is guilty and always a threat to others as long as they live.
 

Silent Hunter

Well-known member
There is no justification for abortion, god created the person and you are destroying what god created, you are not only defying god you are murdering someone and you will go to hell for it.
There is no justification for execution, god created the person and you are destroying what god created, you are not only defying god you are murdering someone and you will go to hell for it.
 

alwight

New member
I wonder if you realise that most zygotes actually fail as a matter of course?
Up to two thirds of all conceptions terminate naturally.
Miscarriages happen naturally and? *keyword natural...this is different you realize then conciously making a choice, then an appointment, gathering up $$, and then after your mini joke counseling at the abortion clinic, a person proceeds in allowing a doctor to willfully murder an unborn child OR conciously walking into a drugstore, asking for the abortion pill, and then conciously taking it with the sole purpose of murdering an innocent, unborn child.
Whatever individuals may do rather pales into insignifigance compared to the human tragedy going on as perhaps arranged by God if a new human being really is created at every conception.
It would mean that maybe two thirds of humanity never got to see the light of day while your God simply allows it all to happen in your view, and of course you wouldn't ever think of blaming God as you do humans?
My God, if I had one, would be different. Human "persons" would only emerge as and when the central nervous system had developed sufficiently with a body that was able to contain it.
Just as the evidence rather suggests it does happen.
You can keep your cruel and tragic unevidenced idea of a magic moment at conception with the majority simply snuffed out soon after, while your God stands by.
My God would be a rather more loving and caring kind of god than yours.:plain:

WOW...
you play for a different team than me.....
No, I bat for the rights of individual persons, not potential ones, to lead meaningful lives with dignity.

God can do anything He wants. I am not His master, He is mine.....
You otoh live your life apparently as a willing slave to an invisible destroyer of two thirds of humanity, and then you criticise those who simply want to be able to make their own choices about it all and not to be compelled to go along with your version.
 

LKmommy

New member
No, I bat for the rights of individual persons, not potential ones, to lead meaningful lives with dignity.

And if that individual does NOT lead what you call a "meaningful dignant life" then what does someone like you do?

How does one become meaningful and dignant in your atheist world?

What standard are you going by for "meaningful and dignant"? Who makes that determination who is meaningful and dignant and has "a right to life" in your world of thinking?
 

alwight

New member
And if that individual does NOT lead what you call a "meaningful dignant life" then what does someone like you do?

How does one become meaningful and dignant in your atheist world?

What standard are you going by for "meaningful and dignant"? Who makes that determination who is meaningful and dignant and has "a right to life" in your world of thinking?
Perhaps you will first explain what "dignant" means, I've never heard of it least never used it.
If you mean to have "dignity" then doing what you personally think is for the best based on real evidence, rather than simply adhering to a doctrine or being unquestioningly subservient would be a reasonable start imo.
 

Stripe

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But that's how the pro-lifers are behaving in regards to the mother's loss of sovereignty over her own body. They don't say it is justified given the ultimate good, they ignore there is any wrong at all, any other side to give consideration to.

Your "right to sovereignty over her own body" is an invented right that is an attempt to poison the discussion with false emotional weight. There are a myriad of things that go on inside every person's body that we have no control over. Your supposed right does not trump the right to life, yet you ignore personhood. Even when you confess a child exists, you place your invented right above the value of human life.
 

Shannon1581

New member
There is no justification for execution, god created the person and you are destroying what god created, you are not only defying god you are murdering someone and you will go to hell for it.

The Bible tells us to excute wicthes,gays etc.That is justified because god tells us to.
 

Yorzhik

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You realize it will never be a zygote? A zygote is only formed from the union of sperm and egg.

Unless you want to call a skin cell fused with an enucleated egg cell a "zygote".
Zygote is OK for now. But whatever it's name is when it's at the one cell stage, that's when we would protect it as a human.

Actually I don't know what would happen if you put it in the correct environment. There is no "physically turning it into one" line I'm aware of.
And the "correct environment" is...? Has there ever been a pluripotent cell that came from a skin cells that ever naturally ended up in the "correct environment?"

Or when a human body is not a person anymore. Why not use the same criteria to determine when a group of cells attains "person hood"?
Wow. I'm either reading this wrong or my satire has exposed your predilection for euthanasia.
 

alwight

New member
The Bible tells us to excute wicthes,gays etc.That is justified because god tells us to.
It doesn't actually say not to kill the unborn either.
When killing non-believing women say (as you do) there is no specific instructions to make sure that none are pregnant. Just put them to death is what your doctrine says, what is one to do? :idunno:

2 Chronicles 15:13 KJV "That whosoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel should be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman."
 

mighty_duck

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Your "right to sovereignty over her own body" is an invented right that is an attempt to poison the discussion with false emotional weight. There are a myriad of things that go on inside every person's body that we have no control over. Your supposed right does not trump the right to life, yet you ignore personhood. Even when you confess a child exists, you place your invented right above the value of human life.
Show me these myriad of cases where another person (or just another organism) can lawfully access your internal private parts without your ongoing consent.

Unless by myriad you mean "none".
 

Yorzhik

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This set of statements deserves its own post.

And you can't convince me, nor most of the rest of humanity that a one celled zygote deserves the same rights as a human being anyway. Asserting it over and over doesn't make it true.
A one celled zygote is a complete human. Why shouldn't it get the same rights? It isn't assertion, it's a logical conclusion.

A zygote inside of a woman's body cannot be seen or detected by any means I'm aware of. In fact any attempts to do so might result in the failure to implant (death) of the zygote.
As irrelevant as this is to the discussion, what is amazing is that a woman's body knows when there is a fertilized egg getting ready to implant.

The only way you can "protect" zygotes is to ban all forms of hormonal birth control leaving you with condoms and surgical means. If you do that, you'll have a massive black market in the substances.
Despite the failure of drug prohibition, there would not be a huge black market for these chemicals because women don't want to take them *now* when they are easy to get and relatively cheap. Despite the ease of taking a morning after pill, women prefer to get "surprised" and go through some very expensive and invasive surgery to get rid of their babies. Thus, they will either have the baby or modify their behavior if the option of killing the innocent baby is not available in most cases. Sure, there will be a black market for abortifacients, but it won't be a big market like the market that is the cause of imprisonment of 1/2 the federal prison population.

What do you plan to do? Throw women in jail for using birth control pills? Screen them for having IUDs? Follow women to see if they miss their normal cycles, then prosecute them if they fail to give birth?

It quickly becomes ludicrous, especially since you're often the same people that decries invasive government. You don't get much more invasive than a vaginal probe.
Of course, none of these ludicrous things will be done. It will probably be similar to what is being done in places that already make illegal the killing of innocent humans before they are born. Probably similar to before killing innocent humans before they are born was legal in this country. What were we doing then?
 

Yorzhik

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That is EXACTLY my point. We all agree that killing a 5 year old is a tragedy and an intrinsic wrong.

However, sometimes, it is justified (such as in war, when such an action may save many others). That doesn't make the child's death any less tragic, nor should it be ignored - even if it is ultimately justified.

But that's how the pro-lifers are behaving in regards to the mother's loss of sovereignty over her own body. They don't say it is justified given the ultimate good, they ignore there is any wrong at all, any other side to give consideration to.
But my point was that killing any human is just as much an intrinsic wrong and it carries consequences you don't want as a society.

BTW, let me double check your beliefs here. You believe a zygote is a human, but we can kill it anyway because it isn't a person. Also, you know your line is blurry, but you feel it is clear enough to stand legally. You also agree my line is clear, but violating rights of one party must lead us wait until the other party has developed greater rights.
 

Yorzhik

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I'm asking, which one is a human. You want to call every human cell a human being.
Huh? You aren't being clear. Do you mean I want to call every human even when they started as a single cell a human?

Also, it's rather rich coming from you complaining about how something looks shouldn't matter. Pictures of aborted fetuses and models of tiny humans have been THE tool of the pro-life movement since the beginning. Indeed that's even the purpose of the forced ultrasound bills, forcing women to look at what they're planning on aborting. Please get off of your high horse and come back to reality.
The emotional appeal of a picture is valid because those woman that are murdering their babies even by your criteria should be persuaded not to.

We aren't using that emotional appeal here so your accusation is unfounded.

They certainly don't seem to care if women die of illegal abortions. "Served her right" is the thinking I've seen. Plus there's the issue of simply not caring about the rights or feelings of the woman involved. Instead you're going to put the "rights" of a single cell ahead of a full grown woman. :dizzy:
You are letting your emotional bias get in the way of a sound moral code.

Of course the people that don't want babies killed don't want the mothers that have them hurt either. You need to hang out with pro-lifers sometimes because they are just as charitable if not moreso to the mothers that turn away from abortion clinics.
 

Yorzhik

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I'm glad you brought that up, because the US, as in most of the world, defines death in terms of the failure of the central nervous system to sustain electrical activity. This is analogous to the criterion that I suggest for the start of life, too.
And if you start defining which humans are persons, there are consequences for those humans being intentionally killed.
 
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